Making the Most of Mentoring

Ellen Ensher: Well, exactly. One of the things that's happened in the past 20 or 30 years is that careers have changed. People don't tend to stay in their same jobs, they tend to shift careers, a common statistic is that people change careers five to seven times, people change jobs frequently, there's no longer any stigma attached with that. So every time you change a job, every time you change a career, every time you learn a new knowledge or skill or task, it's a good idea to pick up a new mentor. So it's really about not just attaching the one traditional mentor, but instead having a network of different types.

Rachel Salaman: Well we'll get on to the types a little bit later, but first of all, I wonder if you could outline the advantages of mentoring on both sides?

Ellen Ensher: Sure. Well, I think to start with people are pretty familiar with what the advantages of mentoring are from the protégé side, so let me just give you a summary of research and probably echo and affirm most people's affirmation about what they think is beneficial. Protégés, people who have mentors actually make more money, get more promotion; express greater career and job satisfaction. So there's a lot of those tangible benefits. There's also a number of other benefits that protégés gain, such as feedback, invitations to join the inner circle, a better understanding of norm. So that's the protégé side, so it seems pretty obvious what they gain.

I think what is less obvious to people is what do mentors and what do organizations get out of the relationship? And I have to say in doing 50 interviews with CEOs and executives, one of the most often repeated comments was, "Wow, I got so much more out of my relationship with my protégé than I ever thought possible. I got more out of it than they did." So mentors gain things like, first of all, appreciation, a sense of rejuvenation in their careers. They gain someone in their inner circle who is loyal to them or, as one our interviewees said, he was reflecting on the relationship, he said, "This person is like a truth teller to me." It was Larry Carter, the CFO of Cisco was reflecting and said, "I have so many people who I'm surrounded with who are very generous with me and my protégé is the one who will always tell me the truth and sometimes even give me critical feedback." So it can be a communication conduit to a different part of the organization or industry or just even the younger generation.

So that's some of the things a mentor gets. There's also some things an organization gets as well. I think the reason we are seeing such a compelling move towards mentoring in organizations and really what we know is that there's a number of organizations doing formal, but I think there's a huge untapped groundswell of people who are also engaged in informal relationships and I think the reason for that is that because organizations realize that this is a great way to transfer knowledge. We know that there's a baby boomer brain drain going on, so certainly in the US, and I believe in other industrialized nations as well, such as Great Britain, the medium age of a worker is aging. We have an exodus of senior management, so the question becomes well how do we transfer knowledge? How do we transfer organizational culture? And mentoring is a key way to do that. Mentoring can also increase retention for those who are there. They get a sense of greater loyalty. It can be a recruitment tool. It has even been shown to be a way that increases organizational productivity because people feel more attached and they ascribe greater meaning to their work. They feel that they're in a place where they can learn and develop, so those are some of the benefits that are true to the organization as well.

Rachel Salaman: It's sometimes hard for organizations to take a long term perspective, the kind of perspective they need for mentoring, especially if they're trying to meet short term performance targets. What are the key arguments for making that long term commitment that mentorship requires?

Ellen Ensher: Well, I think the key argument is that labor is your biggest cost or there's a wonderful organization called FASS, and FASS is known as a best practice organization because they have a 3% turnover rate in an industry, it's a technical organization, that's typically 20% and they offer this amazing array of perks. They have a gym; they have massages; they have gourmet food; they have artisan residents, but the CEO says, "Every single night my biggest assets walk out that door, which are the people, and every single day, it's my job to bring them back in here," and mentoring is a way to help your biggest assets stay put, pass the knowledge on, pass the organizational culture on, and really be as satisfied and productive as possible. So, I think those would be some of the arguments. People are leaving, it's a mobile, dynamic time, so putting emphasis on mentoring, building it into the reward structure, making it part of your culture where it's not just one more thing on a huge list of impossible things to do, but it's actually something that's seen and rewarded and recognized, is really a way for that organization to keep their assets in place, and trained and train the next generation.

Rachel Salaman: Have you found that in general more people want to be mentees than mentors, and, if so, isn't that a problem?

Ellen Ensher: Right, well, I think the issue is both a quantity – or perhaps less of a quantity issue and more of a quality issue. There's probably enough mentors to go around. There's probably not enough good mentors to go around, or influential or skilled or highly placed mentors, which is really what you want. We interviewed Paula Madison, who is the President of KNBC, and she had a funny comment, she said, "Every time I walk out this door to do a talk, my secretary shudders because I come back with a slew of business cards and field tons of requests for people who want me to be their mentor, but while I want to be a mentor for everyone and I love helping people out, I just don't have enough time in the day." I think that that's the problem is that the – really – the people who are very skilled, end up having a borage of requests like Paula Madison. So one of the things that she does, which I thought was very clever, is she actually will talk to everyone or have an email contact with everyone, but then she'll refer potential protégés to others in her network, so it's almost like she has a mentoring referral system. So she realizes she can't take on everyone herself. I think the other thing with people, you know, looking around and wondering, hmmm, you know, it seems like there's a shortage of really qualified mentors, I think the key aspect to the – the key to success here is that you have to look at their perspective and say, "Well what can I do to be helpful to a potential mentor?" and be very clear about what it is that you need or want, and think about what you might offer them in return, and that will make you more attractive to a potential mentor, if that makes sense?

Rachel Salaman: So what can a protégé offer a mentor?

Ellen Ensher: I think it's as individualized as the relationship. So things that we've heard from people are things like new insight, things like energy, things like, as I mentioned earlier, being a communication conduit. It may even be a set of specific skills. There's a concept known as reverse mentoring where – which was pioneered initially by Jack Welch at GE and now it's very popular at IBM, where we interviewed a group of people, and it's basically where senior management has a younger person as their mentor and this is popular in the tech industry because when you think about the younger generation, they are doing crazy things with technology that it's harder for the older generation just to keep up with, so technological skill is potentially a really big one. I mean, my son is going into kindergarten and they're going to start showing him PowerPoint. So it's amazing, this generation just has skills that we're not going to have, and in that sense it could be something that they offer.

Rachel Salaman: You touched on the time commitment that this type of relationship takes to build, is it possible to say how much work and time commitment is involved in maintaining a successful mentoring relationship?

Ellen Ensher: Yeah, that's an interesting question. I haven't seen a definitive study on that. I would say my experience in working with my clients and looking at some articles that have looked at frequencies of variables tells me that it wildly varies, which isn't a very helpful answer, but there is one study that I'm aware of from MentorNet. This is a wonderful organization and it's international. Its www.mentornet.net and what they do is they pair women, science, technology, engineering and math students with mentors in these industries around the world and to date, I believe they've paired over 24,000 mentors and protégés and they've done some research and they've looked at well what's the time commitment it takes to have a good relationship where those parties express satisfaction? And they've found it can be as little as 15 minutes a week online. So it seemed like it doesn't need to be a lengthy interaction, but it needs to be a consistent and frequent interaction, and also one that's of high quality. One of the things MentorNet does is they send out coaching and prompts to the members of their community because almost all the mentoring happens online, so this is the only way they can access each other. And so they've found the time commitment is fairly minimal and I have to say I do an assignment with my students here at Loyola Marymount where they get a mentor and I tell them about 15 to 20 minutes a week, and I would say at the end of the semester there's about a 90% success satisfaction rate. So, just think in terms of consistency, rather than a big chunk of time.

Rachel Salaman: You were talking about e-mentors there, and in your book, Power Mentoring, you have a surprisingly long list of all the different types of mentor that you came across, including e-mentors, traditional mentors, peer mentors, what are the most common types?

Ellen Ensher: I would say probably traditional mentors are still the most common types. When we talk about formal mentoring programs, when I get calls to set those up, most people still want a traditional mentoring person, which is a person who's senior in age and experience to take somebody who's younger and less experienced under his or her wing. So I would say that that is the traditional and that's still very, very common, but more and more, we're definitely finding this e-mentoring is very popular, even if it's not a peer e-mentoring relationship, but it's, kind of, a hybrid where they utilize other forms of communication. I'm seeing much more of that just because employees today are so dispersed. We're in such a global economy that – and I think people are much more used to communicating through email, through instant messaging, through Skype, so I would say that's really growing, and I notice also that the number of formal online mentoring programs available is also really shooting up. So that's a very common type and then I think that the other form is probably peer mentoring. As we have this growth in the workforce and people are moving out, what we're finding is that peers can actually offer a lot of the emotional support needed and they can also offer a lot of the same task- specific support that protégés might need, and I'm starting to see more of an emphasis on that.

Rachel Salaman: Is it possible to say which types of mentoring are the most effective?

Ellen Ensher: Again, I would say it really depends on what people need. I get asked a lot of times for, you know, well what are the major competencies of a mentor? And I can give you that as, you know, what are the top ten best characteristics of a protégé? And, you know, and again, I can give you those from research, but I really think that more than anything it's about fit, and it's about knowing yourself and knowing your mentor because people change and needs change and relationship dynamics change. So, I think that you have to be extremely mindful of what your needs or goals, what you offer, and the same thing with a mentor, and I think that that's really – I think that's really what it's about in terms of what's best. So I hate to give a wishy-washy answer, but I would say it depends.

Rachel Salaman: So how do you know if you would benefit from a mentoring relationship or would everyone?

Ellen Ensher: Well, I would say ask yourself a couple of questions. I also encourage people to start with the main question, which is who am I? What am I good at, and what do I need help developing? So what are my strengths or what am I growing, as the Jesuits like to say? And then next, ask yourself a series of questions around well, what are my goals and then what can I offer? Am I going to be learning any kind of new knowledge, skills or abilities? Is there – as I look into the future and think about my goals, is there something that I need help getting clarity on, is there a skill that I need help developing? So I would say, think about mentoring as not just being something that you do at work, but think about it also as a life strategy. You know, as we move into new roles in our personal life, as we constantly grow and change and have to tackle new learning, think about acquiring mentors for all of these various dimensions.

Rachel Salaman: So is it possible to be a mentor and a mentee at the same time?

Ellen Ensher: Definitely, and we had a lot of the people that we interviewed who were in that situation. I think one of the things I found really interesting is that even the most senior people, like the CEO of NBC, Bob Wright, most senior people have a mentor and I think it's because again, they are focusing on continuous growth and development. And I think it's really helpful to be both a mentor and a mentee, because it gives you empathy for both of those roles and, as you're learning from your mentor, say, a technique about questioning style or reflective or active listening, you can look at the advice they're giving you on two levels, both content and process, so you can say, "Hmmm, that's interesting advice, that's helpful to me right now," but notice how they are helping you, how they are giving you the advice and think about incorporating those successful techniques into your relationships with your own protégés or mentees. So I think it's very helpful to be engaged in both aspects of the relationship, and it's a way, you know, and it's also a way of taking it forward, if you will.

Rachel Salaman: Do you have a mentor or mentees?

Ellen Ensher: I do!

Rachel Salaman: How many?

Ellen Ensher: I have both. I would say I have an ongoing roster of protégés that have different needs at different times. So I was thinking about this, I probably have, hmmm, three to eight that, kind of, float in and out. So that means sometimes I'll spend a lot of time with one, or it depends what they need. As one goes up for a promotion, I might have a lot of phone conversations and then take her out to lunch to congratulate her. I have somebody else who's going to graduate school, I might be spending a lot of time with her, whereas the others they're just checking in with me and I'm checking in with them. So – and then in terms of myself, I have a lot of mentors. I feel like I have a consulting mentor for when I wear that hat. I have a writing mentor for when I am writing that hat, and I would say even in my personal life, I have a mommy mentor. For example, my son just started a new school today and the school's actually given me a mentored acclimate to the new school, which has been very helpful. So I have a number of mentors and mentees and I suspect I probably always will.

Rachel Salaman: What do you say if you simply haven't got time to take on a new mentee? What is a useful way of turning them away?

Ellen Ensher: Right, I think that's a really good question because, as you can imagine, I get asked a lot to mentor people and I can't take everyone on. So I think the main thing is just to be very direct and upfront about that and then, if possible, to give them some other options or alternatives, so to give them a referral if you can, to another person if you feel like, you know, this is a good person and they will take care of your network. If you really don't know them, and you don't have the time, and you don't want to refer them, then I would refer them to some ways they can find a mentor. So like a professional organization or here on campus, of course, we have a career center with a mentoring program, even just some books to read, for example, or some strategies that they can use. So I would give them some ways that they can help themselves and some other avenues, but, and the other thing I would consider sometimes is letting them know that you'll mentor them for a short period of time for something that's very specific. You know, maybe for writing their first book, or for doing an essay for graduate school, but then after that, given your other time constraints, you're going to have to pass them on to someone else.

Rachel Salaman: Well let's say someone is right at the beginning of this process and wants to find a mentor. How should they go about choosing the right person to mentor them?

Ellen Ensher: Right, I would say the thing that they need to do is they need to look around their environment and – or their organization or their profession or even the profession or the organization they aspire to be in, and there are usually some people that stand out as "go to" people as stars. Secondly, ask yourself, how could I possibly connect with that person or someone in their circle? So I remember we were interviewing Rosario Marin who was the 41st US Treasurer of the US, and we interviewed her and we interviewed her protégé, Araceli Gonzalez, who was a Council woman, and Araceli was relating to us when she first saw Rosario she would see her on TV. She would see her at meetings speaking and she would say to herself, "She's way up there. I'm way down here. How could I ever connect with her?" But she set her sights on her and what she started doing was volunteering for events and activities that were related to Rosario. She started knowing people that knew Rosario, finally got an introduction. When she did get an introduction, you know, expressed her sincere, you know, appreciation for her work in a sincere non-stalker sort of way, of course, that is important, and then, through her efforts, ultimately came to have a very close personal and professional relationship with her. And I think what Araceli did that was very smart is she always looked at what could she do to make Rosario's life easier. So when Rosario went off to Washington, Araceli was her communication conduit back in Southern California. She would have events; she would organize events for her. She would let everyone else know Rosario was coming into town. So when she ran for Senate, she was part of her circle that tried to help get her elected.

So I think really being willing to ask yourself what can I do to make this potential mentor's life easier is important, but the main thing is if you can't connect with that person, try to connect with people who know them. I mean, really the way we got the amazing people for this book was simply – well, we did some research and we figured out who were the top people in their fields, and we made a list and then we did research on them and tried to determine who the expert mentors were. And then we told everyone we knew that we needed to connect with these people and we probably went on 40 contact meetings just to try to get a connection. I mean, so everything from my hairdresser to a nun here who knew another nun, to our University President, to boyfriends and husbands and spouses. So tell everyone you know that you're trying to connect with this person or someone like that person, and be patient, be persistent and ultimately, I do believe you can connect with almost anyone or again, be willing to make – have someone in their circle.

Rachel Salaman: So I guess it's not a good idea just to email them out of the blue, it's much better to do it internally?

Ellen Ensher: No, but you could always try that. I personally don't recommend cold calls, again, because people who are very successful get inundated. I think it's better to make a warm call rather than a cold call. So find someone who can make that referral for you. I think it's much better in terms of getting a reception. Now, you know, once in a while making a cold call it's going to work, if you write a very impassioned letter or email, you may hit that person, but I'd say you're going to really up your chances if you can find someone who can refer you to them.

Rachel Salaman: So once the mentoring relationship has been established, how should it be developed? Do you have any examples of best practice in this area?

Ellen Ensher: Well yeah, there's some research has been done. Cathy Cram has become one of the leaders on this looking at the process of relationship development and in general we, kind of, look at it at, sort of, a getting started, nurturing, deepening and then transitioning and there is, of course, different derivations of this. But basically, to get started, I always encourage people to think about their goals, what they want, what are the specific things they need to give and what are the specific things they can get.

And then I think as they go along in their relationship, what we find is that mentors and protégés actually pose tests of each other and sometimes these tests are very explicit and sometimes they are implicit. So when we did our interviews, we asked mentors had they posed any tests and the mentors by and large said, "Oh no, no, you know, I don't think so," but when we asked the protégés almost all of them said, "Absolutely." So – and these tests can be things like giving an assignment or suggesting they read a book or watching them do a presentation. I'll give you one interesting story. Sharon Martinez is a local politician, a former Mayor of the City of Huntington Park, and she approached Congresswoman Hilda Solis about mentoring her to increase her name and her role in the political world, and Hilda Solis said to her, Congresswoman Solis said, "Well, listen, I am happy to mentor you and I'll have regular meetings with you, but what you need to do first is you need to make a list of 100 people who will give you money and keep going. Ask them for money and when you have $10,000, come back to me and we'll talk again." So that was a very explicit test, but it really required Sharon to go out there, hustle up some funds and it showed Hilda that she was very serious and had some skills, and they both talk about how that was a test that caused their relationship to deepen and it caused them to develop a sense of mutual respect for each other.

So I would say to a potential mentee, look out for tests that are being given and to a potential mentor, think about what tests you give people because that is a tool that people use in order to deepen and progress in their relationship – and sometimes people flunk tests. You know, trust is one of those things that takes a long time to build that can be destroyed in an instant and we have a number of people reflect upon that.

Trust was one of those themes that we didn't expect it to be as resounding as it was, but it was something that was mentioned over and over and, in fact, people had stories about trust and it was often, sort of, a moment in the relationship where something happened that either caused the mentor or protégé to break up or go deeper. So one positive moment happened with Anne Sweeny, who's the President of Disney-ABC Cable TV Network and her protégé Diane Robina, who at that point was at Nickelodeon. And Diane recently had a baby, they were starting up a new network and she didn't know what to do in terms of childcare and was really, kind of, torn about how to balance all of this. So she called her mentor, who was actually, at that point, her boss, Anne Sweeney, and said, "Well, you know, I'm not sure if I can come back, not sure what to do" and Anne said, "Well listen, let me think about this" and within a day had called her back and said, "I have called my old nanny and she's willing to come and leave where she's at and come and work for you and I've given you a raise for the amount that you need to pay her." And so Diane talked about how that was a defining moment for her with Anne; it made her realize that Anne really had her best interests at heart and it gave her a way to be able to balance her work and her family and so that was just such an ultimate moment of trust, and even though these two women have gone on to even work in competitive organizations, they've maintained their bond and their relationship because of that deep caring and trust.

Rachel Salaman: It sounds like it might be quite a good idea at the beginning of a mentoring relationship for both sides to be quite explicit about their expectations. Is that what you've found?

Ellen Ensher: Yes, a resounding and affirmative yes. The more explicit and specific you can be the better. A lot of times when Susan and I do training for organizations, we actually start with an exercise where we have them think about their metaphors of mentoring and it's very interesting the different things people come up with. Some people say, "A mentor's like a doctor, they help – they fix me when I'm broken. They make me feel better." Others say, "You know, a mentor's like a therapist, they listen and solve my problems," or, you know, "A mentor's like my mom, she gives me a hug when I need it." I mean, there's all sorts of expectations people have that surface sometimes, you know, and some are quite funny, but what I think we find is that they can be very, very different and I think it's really important that mentors and protégés start out asking each other, "Well, what are those expectations? You know, do you expect me to be someone who will give you lots of emotional support and listen, or do you expect me just to be very task-specific and what are your expectations?" This is really important, like, in terms of how we best communicate. There are so many options these days, some people love email and really don't want to talk on the phone, others can't stand that. Some people want a short voicemail message, you know, others insist that you drop by. You know, some people just love texting and others have no idea how to do that. So there's such a variation in terms of even how we communicate with other nowadays. It's important to get that on the table too.

Rachel Salaman: Ellen Ensher, thank you very much for joining me today.

Ellen Ensher: My pleasure.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Ellen's book again is Power Mentoring: How successful mentors and protégés get the most out of their relationships.

I'll be back next month with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.