Hello Stay Interviews, Goodbye Talent Loss: A Manager's Playbook

Beverly Kaye: Well it's interesting. Stay interviews were one small idea in "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em." "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em," for people who know it, is organized by the alphabet, and the "A" was for "ask" – ask your people why they stay. And we invented the idea of stay interviews, and when we practiced it in the workshops that we do around the world, managers just seem to gravitate to it, they loved it, and they said "This is easy, I never thought of asking the question." And when they usually ask the question, alas, is right when the person comes in to say "I'm thinking about leaving," and then we say "What can I do to keep you?" So the idea of the stay interview is to be proactive and ask it sooner rather than later.

Rachel Salman: So it's all about finding out what would keep that key person, or is it a key team member that you do this with, or do you do them with everybody?

Beverly Kaye: You know, I would say do them with everybody, because sometimes we have performers who are not doing what they could be doing because of something that is easily changed, but if a manager is tight on time I would say start really, with the talent that you think is most vulnerable, start with the talent you're most concerned about, but it's a great conversation to have with everyone.

Rachel Salman: So this might sound like a bit of an obvious question, but, what's the usual motive for doing a stay interview? Is there more than one?

Beverly Kaye: Well of course the number one motive, and the way the book is written, is around retention. "I want to keep my best people." This is such a competitive time now and one way to keep them is try to give them more money. Another way to keep them is to find out what really matters, what do they really care about, and I think the motive mainly is that. But I think it's also to better understand and to match the person and the job, and the more managers know their people as individuals, and I would even say keep notes, the more you know them as individuals, the more possible it is to motivate them with something that's going to connect.

Rachel Salman: So you mentioned that these types of conversations don't happen as often as they should. Why is that, do you think?

Beverly Kaye: You know, the biggest reason that we hear from managers around the world is "It's a great idea, I'd love to do it but I don't have time, I'm too busy," and we try to remind them about the time it takes to replace someone if in fact they lose a great player. So I think part of it is time, and we're suggesting that they make the time, and that it doesn't mean you sit down and have a 20 minute intensive dialog. It may be something that's done in a couple of minutes. It may be around something that you notice a person really enjoying or not enjoying, and it's asking more about that and learning what it is that motivates each and every individual.

I also think some managers are worried that, "Maybe if I give a stay interview it will give people ideas that I should be maybe looking around," or it will get people nervous. I think that's not the case.

Lastly I think some managers don't have the conversations because they think they already know what motivates their people and why they stay, and I'd say check out your assumptions. I think that's really important.

Rachel Salaman: So does it matter where or when stay interviews take place, for example, is an annual appraisal a good time to do it?

Beverly Kaye: You know, I don't think it matters where or when. On the "where," it should be somewhere where you have a touch of privacy and it's the two of you, and "when" is really almost any time. I would say in onboarding, a stay interview might sound something like "What is it you're getting here that you're surprised and aren't happy about, and what is it you're getting here during your onboarding that really pleases you?" I think stay interviews take place during a regular one-on-one chat between manager and employee. I think they're great during development planning conversations. It's really no special time, and I know you asked about appraisal, I'd say appraisal might be, I'd put that last on my list because appraisal already carries with it so much of an overtone, but you get hints during appraisal about what's important to your people and you should listen for them.

Rachel Salaman: Now in your book, you ask "Is the stay interview an art or a science?" so what's your answer and why?

Beverly Kaye: You know, I smile when you say that because the answer is, of course, it's both. I think the art really is the person himself or herself. I think the art really is, are you just doing this as an exercise or are you really paying attention and listening with everything you have in you? I think the art is how curious are you and what are the questions that you ask to go deeper and learn more, and how open are you to hearing what's really important to people and to maybe delve a step deeper.

The science of it might be that you have a set of questions that are ready, that you think about it ahead of time, that I think with employees that you really are concerned about, maybe you actually talk it through with someone else so that you're really ready, and you think about it before walking into it, that might be the science, and I think these require both.

Rachel Salaman: So what kind of preparation or setup should a manager do before conducting a stay interview?

Beverly Kaye: You know, Rachel, I think it's really up to the manager and his or her ease about the meeting. So sometimes there are "off-the-cuff" possibilities that present themselves, like you notice that an individual is doing a presentation and is really into it. It might be a way that a manager says "Gee, I noticed how much you enjoyed that particular presentation and that work, is it something that you want to do more of?" That, right there, could be a great stay interview question. In the learning solutions that Career Systems offers we do a lot of practice, whether it's virtual or whether it's face-to-face, and managers seem to like that practice, and when we practice, we practice with a partner, and it's not a made up scenario, it's real. So, I think that practice is good. Sometimes you can role play with a peer if this is somebody who's really, really, important to you, and you're kind of nervous about it, but mainly it's tuning in to the other person and if you listen well they will begin to give you the next question to ask.

Rachel Salaman: And you make this point in the book, that this kind of interview is about asking questions, listening, and then responding, and there are good and not so good ways of doing each of those things. What are some examples of questions that work well?

Beverly Kaye: You know, I love the straight out question, which is, "You're really important to me and I want to know what is it that keeps you here. What are some of the most important things about the job, this place, the work, that make you say ‘I'm glad I'm doing this'?" There are other questions that a manager can keep in his hip pocket, like, "What makes for a great day at work?" or, "What could I do more of to support you in your work?"

You know, Rachel, the book itself gives managers a ton of great questions, and it's really about what questions are you comfortable with. One of my favorite stay interview questions is, "Am I fully utilizing all of your skills?" and I think that's a great question, because individuals really want their organizations to use all of their skills, and I think that a manager who says, "Which of your skills do you wish I used more of?" I think is asking a great question.

It's asking questions that build on one another. It's not just "Q and A", "Q and A", "Q and A," it's listening to what's in the question and moving on from there.

Rachel Salaman: Yes. So how much should the questions in a stay interview differ then, from one team member to the next?

Beverly Kaye: I think they should. I think before an individual walks into your office a manager should think "What do I know about this individual? How has their work been? What might I start with?" And I think the prelude to the conversation is important. I think to relax, if you have three great questions that you could ask to every team member it would maybe make managers more comfortable in how they start, and then once you're started you want to really listen to the answer so that you go deeper around the question they just asked. You know, it reminds me of an exercise that we do called "Listen for the 'blinking word.'"

Rachel Salaman: Yes indeed. Talk to us about that, because that's a great tip that you give in your book.

Beverly Kaye: Yeah, and it's a matter of if you can just imagine. You ask a person a question and out of their mouths comes a word cloud, a bubble. Like you might say, "Tell me what the very best part of your job right now is," and they say, "Well, I love if I can solve tough problems and I love when I can pull my colleagues in to solve those problems." Instead of saying, "Yes, thank you," and moving on to the next question, you ask about the words that jumped out at you and how they just answered, like, "Well what kind of problems do you like to solve?" and, "What kind of colleagues help you the most in solving a problem?"

And that moves you back into the words they just used and helps you go deeper, instead of moving on to the next question, and people then feel heard, and that's the most important thing in the interview, I believe.

Rachel Salaman: Do you find that people find it quite easy to follow the "blinking word" once you've explained to them what you mean?

Beverly Kaye: You know, it's quite amazing that it is, because for many managers I think you worry about, "What am I going to ask next?" and the minute you're thinking about, "What am I going to ask next?" you are losing the train of thought that the employee just shared, and then it feels more rote and it feels less relaxed. So I think truly listening to that last sentence and asking for more information, more data about something they just said, shows them you are really listening and relaxes you too as a manager.

Rachel Salaman: You say in the book that managers are often scared of asking the key question, "What would keep you here?" And that's because they're not sure they'd be able to deliver on the answer they got. So tell us about your four steps for dealing with tough requests.

Beverly Kaye: Sure. You know, just by way of saying a little more. It is true, when we ask managers, "So this is an easy question to ask, like it's not rocket science, what holds you back?" And what most managers say is, "What if the first thing they say is something I absolutely cannot deliver on, like more money or like that career move or something like that?" And what we say the four steps are is: number one, acknowledge, like, "I understand that that's what you want and I can understand how that would be important to you." You know, share with them what you just heard them say, and then I really think it's telling the truth. It's saying, "I hear that you want that salary raise, and right now I cannot deliver on it, but I'm so motivated to keep you on my team that I want to know what else, what else really matters to you, because I want to find something that I have a degree of control over and see if I can make sure that I deliver that."

You know what's interesting, I think if a manager asks the "What else?" question like three times, he will get a plethora of ideas from the individual they're interviewing that they never were aware of, and some of what individuals want sometimes can be easy to make happen, but the problem is we never ask and we never explain like "why" we're asking.

Rachel Salaman: Forcing yourself to ask more than you naturally would, I suppose, is one way to look at it.

Beverly Kaye: Right, that's right. It's like not stopping at the first answer and probing and going deeper. Again, it's that "blinking word," but, you know, it's acknowledging what the person wants, letting them know you heard. It's really telling the truth about what you're able to deliver and not able to deliver. It's showing them that you care, and then it's that magic question, "What else? I really want to find those things that I can do something about." That's what's crucial for me.

Rachel Salaman: And then, presumably, following through afterwards? So that you prove that their trust in you, that you hope that you've gained is actually justified.

Beverly Kaye: Absolutely. You know, managers that I know take notes on each of their employees and what the key stay interview areas are. So it's not just a "one and done," it's something that you think about a lot, and I think that's really important.

Rachel Salaman: And in the book you offer some quiet nuanced advice about the fear that a person will ask for a raise that isn't possible. You say, and I quote, "Although inadequate pay can be a huge source of dissatisfaction, even fair pay won't retain people who are unhappy in other key areas." So can you talk a bit more about that and how it plays into stay interviews?

Beverly Kaye: Sure. I think that managers really believe that pay is the most critical factor, and in our original research for "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em" we interviewed, like 20,000 individuals at all levels at organizations around the world, and pay rarely came out as a number one stay factor, "I stay for the pay." But the interesting thing is, it will come out higher if other things that individuals want aren't there, like "I want a boss who values me, I want a job that challenges me, I want to feel valued," you know, "I want to know that I can grow here." If those things are missing then pay becomes the only sign that I'm appreciated.

So, for the most part, pay isn't the reason people stay, it's everything else around pay. And if pay is fair, then I think people will really tell managers the other things that are meaningful to them. And the secret for the manager is to ask that "What else?" question, and to go in like you're an archeologist studying something, to tease out other things that are important to the individual.

Rachel Salaman: In the book you suggest that managers look out for warning signs that their people might be unhappy and might be thinking of leaving, so this would be perhaps looking for reasons to invite them for a stay interview. What kind of warning signs might indicate that they're thinking of leaving?

Beverly Kaye: Do you know, there are a lot of warning signs, and some are obvious and some are less obvious. I think that noticing a good employee who volunteered for things, who raised his hand quickly, who kind of changes that behavior, I think that's a sign. I think that seeing that an employee's best friend is leaving the organization might get an employee to think about leaving even though they were very happy.

I think the impending fear of a change or a reorganization might get some employees to begin to think "Gee, I don't want to get caught in that change, I'm going to look around." Sometimes it's just a perk that's taken away, you know, "We're cutting back on dollars and it's the free coffee that we just can't do any more," and I get surprised by that. But for some people, it makes me think "Gee, other pastures might be greener," and truly other pastures aren't that green. I think employees find sometimes they are Astroturf.

I think that managers have to keep their eyes and ears open and tuned into what's going on in their work group.

Rachel Salaman: And if they see something specific that they consider to be a warning sign and then they plan a stay interview as a result, how should they then address the specific things that they've observed with the team member in question? How explicit should they be about what they're worried about?

Beverly Kaye: You know, I think the best is tell the truth, to tell the employee what you saw, tell the employee what you noticed, and let the employee know that you know it's a hot job market out there, you know that they have choices, and that you are concerned about it and you don't want to lose them because they're critical to your team.

So I sometimes think of the three steps that managers have to do. They have to recognize when they see something, they have to verbalize what they see, and they have to mobilize, do something about it. And I think that's the best advice I can give. I think being explicit and letting the person know that you've seen a change and that you're concerned. And maybe they won't say "Yes, I am thinking about it," but they'll know that you as a manager value them and you don't want to lose them on your team.

Rachel Salaman: Now this approach to retention may not appeal to managers who prefer more traditional management techniques, shall we say, so it may feel strange for them to be offering team members control in this way, they might see it like that. What's your advice for those managers?

Beverly Kaye: Could be one of two things. I would say, if I wanted to be a little impertinent, I might say "Get over it, push yourself, get in there and ask those questions," because otherwise you're basing your retention strategy on a hunch you have and you should really check out that hunch. But I'd also say, for a manager who's not comfortable, you know, there's nothing wrong in saying to an employee "Hey, this is not comfortable for me, but I really don't want to lose you, you're important on my team, and so I'm going to ask you some questions that I read about in a book and I heard about in an article I read, or a training program I went to, and it's not easy for me to do this but I'm going to hang in. I'd love you to hang in, and let's see if we can come up with what some of the key stay factors are for you so that I have a direction and I have an objective."

And that kind of straight talk, I think, is great for managers and leaders.

Rachel Salaman: It comes back to the theme of trust, which has kind of been running throughout our discussion. Trust is obviously really important in stay interviews. How else can a manager build trust if he or she feels it's lacking?

Beverly Kaye: You know, it's interesting, in the book we have a trust building behavior quiz that asks managers to score themselves. And it asks questions like "I'm consistent in my actions, I do what I say, I treat you with respect, I keep confidences." A manager who really wants to think about his or her relationship with a particular employee might look through that list with a particular person in mind and think "How does this person really experience me? Do they see me being fair, do they see me walking my talk, do they see me living my values?" and maybe ask, actually ask.

I think managers know whether or not there's trust between themselves and their employees or not. And maybe, just maybe, the best way to build trust is to really be authentic, to talk about yourself, to look for opportunities, to say to the employees, "What do you think?" I think all of those are just everyday behaviors that build trust or hurt it, and I think it's critical, not only for, my gosh, for stay interviews, but for the whole relationship between the manager and the employee.

Rachel Salaman: One of the other really useful things in your book is that you offer some tips for dealing with team members from other cultures, because you make the point that, in some cultures, people aren't comfortable speaking up or requesting things from their managers. They would feel uncomfortable answering a question like, "What would keep you here?" So what are some of those tips?

Beverly Kaye: You know, we have delivered this idea around the world, around the globe, and we have found that stay interviews work, they really do work in all cultures. They may have to be massaged in some, so that for individuals who are not comfortable speaking up it might be sometimes smart for an HR person to have the interview instead of the manager himself. I know that it's done in some organizations and that managers are given the cues from an HR person. I don't like that as much as the manager asking directly, but I think being aware of an individual who's not comfortable and talking about how other people answer the question, or how managers themselves answer the question, would go a long way to putting someone at ease.

Rachel Salaman: Well, we've covered a lot of ground in this discussion. What do you think are the one or two top takeaways for managers who want to retain their best people?

Beverly Kaye: I'd say don't wait, don't spend time wondering and worrying – ask. And the question is clear. It's, "I don't want to lose you, you're important to my team. I can't deliver on everything you want but I certainly can deliver on some of what you want, and I need to know what they are." So don't wait, would be number one.

Number two, I'd say check your assumptions. Double check what you think your key people want from their jobs and see if in fact your assumptions are true. And then maybe number three, I'd say stay interviews really do prevent exit interviews. And what you don't want to do is, when it's too late, have the person say "I'm leaving," and you aren't able to say, or your question, "What can I do to keep you?" just rings hollow. So it's an important discussion to have at all times in the employee life cycle.

When we did our original "Love 'Em or Lose 'Em" research we followed individuals who left their jobs and moved somewhere else, and we found them and we asked them, "What was it that you didn't get in the old job?" and they told us what it was, and when we went back and talked to their supervisor, in the old job, the supervisor said, nine times out of 10, "Why didn't he just tell me? Why didn't she come to me?" And it's, "Why didn't she?" that's part of it, because it's not all on the manager, but "Did you ever ask?"

So maybe ask before it's too late and do something with the information you get, would be my advice.

Rachel Salaman: Dr Beverly Kaye, thanks very much for joining us today.

Beverly Kaye: You are welcome.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Bev's book again is "Hello Stay Interviews, Goodbye Talent Loss: A Manager's Playbook." You can find out more about Bev and her work at the Career Systems International website, careersystemsintl.com.

I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.