What Do You Want to Create Today?

Bob Tobin: Well, I feel like I'm living in heaven. Japan is heaven, but also I'm doing what I want to do. I've been teaching, I'm consulting, I'm speaking, I'm writing, and I'm doing it in a really beautiful place – the city of Tokyo – which I never imagined I would end up in.

Rachel Salaman: So what motivated you to write this book – to share some of the tips that got you where you are?

Bob Tobin: You know, my life wasn't so great before. It wasn't so much moving to Tokyo: I didn't really know how to work. I had a good education, I had a good job, but I had trouble getting along with people; I had trouble really figuring out what it was that I really wanted, and eventually I did.

It took me a long time, and I had my ups and downs, but people would say to me, "Where's your book? Where's your book?" And I really wanted to share with other people – I want other people to have the same kind of happiness or their own kind of happiness as well.

Rachel Salaman: Let's talk about the title, "What Do You Want to Create Today?" Why did you choose that?

Bob Tobin: Well, the title came from one of our artists, Ida Bagus Putu Purwa from Indonesia. And every day he goes into his studio after he drops his kids off at school, and he asks himself, "What do I want to create today?" And I just thought that was a beautiful way to live: to look at every day fresh and to think, "Oh OK, today is a new day, what do I want to create today?"

But also I really want to emphasize the "today," because I've been a consultant for a long time but things don't happen very quickly in consulting. Maybe they shouldn't happen quickly, but often people after a workshop, or after some consulting, will say, "I'm going to do this and I want to do this," and I wanted to see what it was that people could do today that could make a difference.

Rachel Salaman: So, do you have any tips for people who might want to do things today but keep putting them off?

Bob Tobin: Yes. Really write them down, and just take a small step every single day. I have these notecards that I use, and at the top of the notecard is "What do you want to create today?" They're like Post-It notes, and I ask people just to write down something that you could do today that could make a difference, either in your life or another person's life.

We always see these small things that need to be changed: maybe it's something in the toilet, something in the gym, something in our fridge – just throw out that stuff that's in the back of the fridge – that could create a better atmosphere for yourself. Start living with less stuff around you. Just do one small thing that would make your life better for today.

Rachel Salaman: The other interesting word in the title is "create." Now, not everyone feels very creative, and they might not be interested in creating things, but your meaning is a bit broader than that in the book, isn't it?

Bob Tobin: Yes, it's really bigger than that, and maybe in some sense it's smaller than that. I mean, people don't think they're very creative, but the truth is most people really are creative, it's just been hidden – but my idea about creativity is you can create a PowerPoint presentation, you can create a better relationship with your partner, you can create a smoother ride to work. Anything is something that you could create. It doesn't have to be a masterpiece or art or anything like that.

Rachel Salaman: So, in a way it's a synonym for "do," really.

Bob Tobin: Yes, you're right. Just do something.

I gave a talk this week and one guy said to me, "Oh, I really want to buy your book," and I said, "OK, here's the link," and he said, "Oh no, not today." For some people, just doing something is such a scary thing.

Rachel Salaman: You mentioned a little earlier about the phrase "every day fresh," and that is something you mention in your book as well – that it's been useful in your teaching and in your consulting work. What exactly do you mean by that?

Bob Tobin: "Every day fresh" is not to bring yesterday's baggage along with you. You see someone that you don't like and you might usually avoid that person or maybe go out of your way not to see that person. But even when I see people that in the past I didn't like, I act like I'm seeing them for the first time, so it's fresh for me. And before you know it, it doesn't always turn into a friendship, but you don't put all that energy into that baggage that you've been carrying with you or looking at that person and saying, "Oh I don't like that person" and getting a bad feeling yourself, and giving them a bad feeling.

I do have a positive outlook, but I just feel like every day I wake up and I ask myself, "What do I want to create today?" and then try to do it.

Rachel Salaman: So in your personal experience, just mentally changing your attitude has actually created a completely new kind of life?

Bob Tobin: Completely new life. I went to my high school reunion, of course that was a very long time ago, but people said to me, "Of course, I hope I'm different than at high school," but people meet me that even five years ago, ten years ago, told me I'm completely different and certainly different from my life when I was living in the United States.

Rachel Salaman: And in your view it's because of little things that you've done rather than some great epiphany?

Bob Tobin: You know, it's been a lot of little things, but also I really stopped setting objectives and focusing on my dream, and I also decided I'm not going to let obstacles get in my way.

I got fired from a job that I really liked in California, and then this time, when I moved to Japan, I said, "I'm going to really do the best job I possibly can and I'm going to try to get along with people." So I really made up my mind: I want to be a great professor, a great consultant. So I think my dream really is what set me on this path.

Rachel Salaman: That's interesting, because there's quite a long discussion in the book about dreams and goals and how they relate to each other. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Bob Tobin: Well, I'm not very big on "goals." I'm really bigger on dreams. I know many people set goals in their work so I say to them, "Tie your goals together with your dreams."

I think sometimes what happens with goals is that they make us feel kind of inhuman in some way, as if the goals were set by somebody else, or if we have to monitor ourselves in some way by setting goals, so I really recommend that people set down their dreams, and I find the goals take care of themselves once you set down your dreams.

For example, if you dream you want to be thin, you'll figure out some way to lose weight. If your dream is to be a great professor, you don't have to say, "I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this," you can really figure it out yourself and just focus on the greatness.

Rachel Salaman: So would you recommend that people don't set goals at all?

Bob Tobin: Oh boy, I'll tell you – I mean, the goals are so ingrained in people, I'm not going to tell anybody not to set goals, because I get into a lot of discussions with people about goals, but I get emails every day from former students who have worked for banks that are now airline pilots, or people who went to work for a Japanese trading company and are now opening a shop in Bali. I think dreams are what really can make a great life for yourself.

Rachel Salaman: Now, you advise people to look within themselves when they're dissatisfied, rather than blame outside forces like their boss or their commute or their financial situation. What are some of your tips for that process of self-awareness?

Bob Tobin: I think you really have to notice your gut reaction when you say, "Oh the boss is doing this" or "The traffic is driving me crazy." You try to change that to some kind of "I" statement where you say, "What can I do about this? What can I do to change this relationship with the boss?"

You can always change your reaction to someone, and about that traffic thing – you know, I think people get very upset about things that they have no control over. I think people say, "Go with the flow" or just give in to some things. But people often blame the boss – it's just so easy to blame the boss – but I find that when people blame the boss then in the next job they blame the boss too. I think if you really want to have the kind of life that you want, you've got to change the way you think about the work. I think the boss doesn't control you as much as you control yourself.

Rachel Salaman: Now, some people will have heard about the benefits of "reading a room." In your book, you talk about "reading the air," which is a bit different. What is that?

Bob Tobin: Yes – reading the air is trying to understand the invisible. It's trying to know when the right time is to say something; it's really seeing people's reaction to something that you say; it's knowing when the best time might be to ask the boss for a raise.

Its basis is really about understanding people and reading the "non-verbals." I was traveling a lot for this book and, in one of those busses coming from the airport, there was a woman who was very interested in a young man who was very near her, and she kept on asking him questions: "What are you going to do tonight? Blah, blah, blah…" Asking him so many questions, but he hardly answered with more than a grunt, and I thought she wasn't reading the air – she wasn't reading the signals that the guy was giving out – and it happens so often. We have so much of our own agenda with other people, we really need to pay attention to the reaction of other people as well.

Rachel Salaman: Can you talk about how that might work in a workplace, and perhaps think of an example?

Bob Tobin: Yes, I think I made a lot of mistakes. I had a boss – I was teaching communications at a university – and the boss wasn't very good at communication, and it was those days when everybody had a small office with a telephone. I didn't read the air very well: whenever I wanted to talk with him, he never would talk to me face to face. He always would go back into his office and call me, and then we'd talk on the phone. And Griffiths was a college of communication! If I'd really read the air, I would have just started calling him, rather than trying to engage him face to face, so that was a mistake that I made.

And I think when you ask for a raise, when you have a performance appraisal, when you're going to speak up at a meeting, you really need to read the air. Some of my clients get promoted, they go on to work in a different atmosphere. Before you say anything you should really read the air: is now the right time to say this?

Rachel Salaman: Are there any other tips or pitfalls that might be helpful for people who want to start doing this?

Bob Tobin: I think the main tip is to be quiet. People are in such a hurry to say something – they want to get their point across – but what's the point in getting your point across if people are not really ready to listen?

Rachel Salaman: Also in the book you say that tough is good, so could you expand on that idea?

Bob Tobin: Yes, tough is really good. You have a tough assignment, it teaches you something, you show what you do, you develop your skills. I think there is a lot of research about the first job that you have should be tough, and that gets you ready for later career challenges.

Easy jobs – you don't learn anything; tough jobs, you learn something. Also, when you're in a tough situation with other people, you develop a bond with those other people.

Rachel Salaman: So the idea is that when you feel like you're doing something that's really difficult is to try and see it as a positive thing?

Bob Tobin: Yes, really see it as a chance to learn: a chance to show what you can do. I think sometimes people stay away from tough because they think they're going to fail at it, but the truth is, you might very well succeed at it, and the tougher it is, you develop self-confidence, too, if you can do it successfully.

Now, you don't want to put yourself over a cliff. You don't want to jump off a tall building. You need to make sure that you have some support around you; some support in terms of people, or support in terms of the right skill set. I wouldn't try to reprogram an old computer: it's too tough for me – it's beyond tough – but some things that are tough I really would want to try.

Rachel Salaman: Related to that, you say that courage matters. That's one of the phrases that jumps out in the book. How do you define courage in this context, and how does it matter?

Bob Tobin: Courage is one of the really important lessons in the book because, if you don't have any courage, well, here's one thing that came up this week – when you have courage, you have more options for yourself. If you have courage, you're going to take more chances.

I define courage as doing something even when it scares you. It might even scare you a little bit, or it might scare you a lot, but if you're able to have courage you're going to take an opportunity where you think, "OK, there is a chance where it's going to be tough for me, or I'm going to take this job where I may not do it 100 percent perfectly. I may take on this advertising campaign that I'm not sure if it's going to be successful or not." So, I think, with courage, you're not necessarily looking for the safe and secure way.

Rachel Salaman: So how can a person assess the difference between courage and hubris? In other words, how can they know when walking away from a challenge is actually the best thing to do?

Bob Tobin: Hubris meaning what? Like pride, or something like that?

Rachel Salaman: A sense that they can do something that's actually beyond the scope of their abilities.

Bob Tobin: Yes – one of the things that kicks up for people is danger. If they think it's really going to be dangerous, of course it makes sense to walk away. If they think the risk is just too great, or their fear is just too great, it probably does make sense to walk away from it.

I'll tell you something, I honestly think that fear is a really good indicator, and what I try to do, if I have some situation that may bring up some fear for me, I try to just write down some things about what it is that I'm really afraid of. If I'm afraid of success, if I'm afraid of failure, blah, blah, blah. Maybe I'm going to look at that a little bit more closely and go for it and use my courage but, if there is really a dangerous situation for me or my chances for hurting myself or for losing a great deal of money are there, maybe I'm going to walk away from that kind of situation.

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Rachel Salaman: Now, you include a chapter in the book that talks about people, and it's called "Get rid of the jerks." So, to give us an idea of what you mean here, how have you applied that in your own life?

Bob Tobin: I've applied that 100 percent in my own life. What it means is to get rid of the people that are bringing you down; get rid of the people who are negative. And I don't mean get rid of them by offing them or shooting them. What I mean really is making them less important in your life. If that person is your boss, you can't do it right away, but just figure out some way to spend less time with them.

I taught in a university for many years. The students were wonderful, but some of the faculty of course are going to be difficult, so I just really chose to spend less time with them and not listen to the faculty gossip or faculty negativity that happens in any kind of faculty room. And I stopped going to places where there was a lot of people just complaining all the time.

The other thing that really made a difference is I got married about a year ago, and somebody said to me, "Boy, where are your old friends?" And I'd go, "They're not with me any more." It wasn't that they're all new people, but a lot of people were people I'd known for 20 or 25 years. But some people I had met when I moved from one location in Tokyo to another, and I made a lot of new friends, but I found they were just coming over to drink my wine; they were just coming over to complain about their jobs. They were just always negative, negative, negative. And I didn't say to them, "Get the heck out of my life," but slowly but surely I just spent less time with them, and believe it or not, new people came in, new wonderful, wonderful people came in – people who liked me, people who like what I do, people who are supportive. I have other examples too, but maybe that's enough.

Rachel Salaman: No, why don't you tell us another example?

Bob Tobin: OK, here's another example. I tried to write this book 10 years ago, and because I'm living in Japan and I am usually used to speaking slowly, and perhaps my vocabulary is less than it would be if I were living in America, I worked with an American editor – a woman at Berkeley.

And she was always amazed. She said, "Boy, your vocabulary is really bad," and I'd go, "What?" And she said, "Yes, I really think your vocabulary is not the college professor level." And I felt so, so terrible. I said, "Yes, maybe because I'm speaking Japanese or Korean or Thai a lot, or I'm talking to people whose first language is not English, maybe my vocabulary has suffered, although no one ever mentioned that to me before."

But after that I really stopped writing for a while, and then somebody said to me, "Are you crazy working with her? It's insane to be working with her." So I got rid of her, this so-called jerk. I hired somebody who said: "Boy, I really like your writing. No, there is nothing wrong with your vocabulary." And then I wrote the book.

Rachel Salaman: What kind of lesson can you pass on from that?

Bob Tobin: My big lesson is get rid of the jerks – the sooner, the better. You don't have to be mean about it, but if you feel like a knot in your stomach when you see somebody or you get a headache after a conversation.

It's like some of my relatives used to call me and just vent, vent, vent, and I'd want to say something about myself, and one of my relatives would say, "Alright, I've got to go now. No time to talk," after they'd vented. And I'd say, "Something is wrong here," so I just stopped talking to that person. I'd just say hello and I'd say "I'm sorry, I don't have very much time right now."

It made a very big difference. In terms of advice, I would say if you feel, after talking to some people, that you are drained rather than energized, it's really time to spend less time with that person.

Rachel Salaman: Related to that is another tip from the book, that we should surround ourselves with the best people. But how do we really know who they are, and, once we've identified them, how can we surround ourselves with them, in practical terms?

Bob Tobin: The best people are the ones who support you; they want the best for you; they're the people who don't push you off the cliff, but they really encourage you to reach your full potential. I have a couple of friends like that: they see things in you that you don't see yourself. Even before you see them, they see them, so those are, in a sense, the best people for you.

I think the way to get them is to not be afraid to show yourself. I think sometimes we try to be like everybody else, but sometimes when we show who we really are, the best people will come to us. Also, a little bit of loneliness helps you find the best people. I think, in some ways, the people that other people may surround themselves with, they kind of fill in the loneliness: "Oh, it's better to talk to this person and hear their junk than to be by myself." But, if you let go of those people, have a little bit of quiet time for yourself, a little bit of peace, then you can really see who it is that you want, and those other people will be attracted to you without all this noise of the other people around you.

Rachel Salaman: Now, it's clear that you value the idea of continually learning throughout life. What are some of the more unexpected learning situations that people should be aware of that might help them?

Bob Tobin: I think the best thing is to learn from other people. When I work with executives, one of the things I say to them is, "Don't be so smart. If you think you're so smart, you can never learn from anybody else. Everybody is your teacher."

And, when I go down to the swimming pool, I'm always watching the way the instructors teach; I'm always watching the way people react to the teaching of the instructors. I think everybody is your teacher. Every time I go into a restaurant, I'm watching: "Why is this staff so engaged? Why is this person so unengaged?" So I would say the first thing is people.

And the other thing is I try to look at successful and unsuccessful businesses wherever I am. I go, "Why is this restaurant packed and this restaurant empty? Why is this business flourishing and another business not flourishing?"

The other thing is that, sometimes, people try to be interesting. They try to show "This is me, this is me," but you can really learn a lot by being interested in other people. The more you are interested in other people, the more you can learn about them, and about yourself too at the same time.

Rachel Salaman: So, how would you learn about yourself if you were being interested in someone else? Is it that you see them reflecting back yourself or in other ways?

Bob Tobin: I think your friends are your mirror. Sometimes, when I thought about those negative people that were around me, I must have been giving off some negative things too, and I learn about myself because I hear what people say to me.

People used to tell me, "You have a good voice." I never thought I had a good voice; now people say to me, "Oh, you have a good voice," and I really believe it. People say to me, "Oh, you are good at giving a speech," and I go, "I never thought I was good at giving a speech." Now I give a lot of speeches. So people give you feedback.

I'm very tall – I'm 193cm – so people notice me here, and Japanese people are very warm. I think it's a little bit different than what people think, but people are very warm here: you see people's reaction to you very easily, especially if you're reading the air, if you're paying attention.

Rachel Salaman: In the book, you also say that people need to have fun in the workplace. Could you give some examples of what you mean by that, and also what you don't mean?

Bob Tobin: I think things like skits, things like parties, they really, really help, but if you love the work that you do that is always fun. People can have contests, but I think socializing is really fun for some people at work. I always think it's a good idea not to eat at your desk, and to not talk about work at lunchtime, so I think that makes it more fun – you get to know people.

I think jokes are not part of the fun, but fun is the relationship that you have with other people. It's not about playing fusball or playing ping pong – that's kind of contrived in some way – but freedom is fun. If people have a lot of rules, they can't have any fun at work. Creating an atmosphere where people can be themselves makes work fun. Then the normal interactions that people have with each other become fun.

Rachel Salaman: That is an interesting interpretation of the word, because I know there have been quite a few books recently about fun in the workplace, and they're all about things like games.

Bob Tobin: Oh Rachel, I really hate that stuff. I'm sorry to say it like that, but it's so contrived. If you put together people who really like each other then they can have fun. I always say you go to a party and you meet people, no one has to have any get-acquainted games, but if you go to work they're usually people that are of a broad age range, there are people who have a lot in common with you, they share a lot with you. If you can give them some freedom, they will figure out some way to have fun – just the basic interaction between people. Everyone says, "Well, we have a ping pong table." Well – that's great.

Rachel Salaman: We've covered a lot of ground in this interview. What to you are the three main takeaways for someone looking to build the life they want at work?

Bob Tobin: There are three things that they can do this week, and one is they can really get in touch with their dream again. What was the dream I had when I started working? Why has it gone? What can I do to rekindle that dream in some way? Or, if I have a dream, let me make that dream clearer, so that's number one.

Number two is really read the air – and I know that sounds like such an abstract concept – but just pay attention to other people's reaction to you. Just notice what other people are doing, like "Death of a Salesman," Arthur Miller: "Attention must be paid." Really pay attention to what reaction you're seeing from other people, and pay attention to what's going on in the meetings sometimes before you say something.

And the third, and this is what I would do very fast, like tonight: get rid of the jerks. It just makes your life miserable, your life gets so much better. Even getting rid of one at a time, things will be much, much better.

Rachel Salaman: Dr Bob Tobin, thanks very much for joining me.

Bob Tobin: Oh it was a pleasure, thank you so much too.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Bob's book again is "What Do You Want to Create Today? Build the Life You Want at Work."

I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.