The Introverted Leader

Rachel Salaman: Why do those people want to be leaders, because introverted behavior doesn't naturally fit into one's idea of leadership does it?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well, you know, it does and it doesn't. I mean, I think when we look at organizations today, they're very much in our face, extroverted in nature, if you will, quick answers, quick decisions, people interactions. So you would think that they're very contrary in their cultures to the introverted personality, and that is true, but yet there are so many assets that the introverts can bring to the organization that is in a state of perhaps crisis or responding to the economic pressures of today, that there has been a much deeper appreciation for those qualities of analysis and reflection, and just a more low key approach to things, the active listening that introverts do, that there really is much more of an understanding now that yes, these are skills and qualities that we do need to integrate into the organization today. And I think that introverts, once they step into that role and see that those qualities can result in actual results, and people respond and their teams get behind them, then there's a real shift.

You know, there were many people that I interviewed, Rachel, when I looked at this topic, who told me that their best bosses, the ones that they had the most admiration for through the years, were the more introverted leaders, which was interesting. Its kind of counter-intuitive, you would think oh no, that's not the case, but I think what introverts learn to do is they really... the successful leaders round out their personality, so they build upon, and that's in the book, we say build upon your quiet strengths, they build upon what they do so well and so beautifully already.

Rachel Salaman: What inspired you to write this book?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes, that is an interesting question isn't it, knowing when I say in the book right off that I'm an extrovert, and so people will talk with me for a few minutes and they'll say wait a second, there's a disconnect here, you're an extrovert. And what is interesting, as you mentioned, I've been doing coaching and speaking for over 25 years, and what I found was that in working with my clients who were more laid back and I would say more introverted in temperament, that they seemed to respond the most to the tools and the techniques that I would share with them around communicating with people and influencing people. So I really became interested in this topic because there was just... they could apply small changes and I would see results, so as an extrovert I became... my radar was more highly tuned, and I also, of course, was married to an introvert, which I talk about in the book.

Certainly being married for over 30 odd years, you do learn to appreciate, either you learn to appreciate it or you don't, you know, in terms of that quiet, calm reflection and that more thoughtful response to life that Bill, my spouse, has taught me. So I would say I'm a champion of introverts, the more I got out there and starting researching the topic and talking with introverts, I found that they feel so misunderstand, Rachel, and so disconnect oftentimes, and until they have the opportunity to talk about this, this topic, and realize that there's nothing wrong with them, as one young person told me the other day that was introverted, she said after talking with you I realize nothing's wrong with me, but they're made to feel that way. I just became so fascinated, and my work really took on even more meaning as I delved into it.

Rachel Salaman: So you're living proof that extroverts can understand introverts if they make an effort to?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes, and I'm living proof I would say, most days, because, you know, our personalities really, Rachel, are not one-sided or the other. I think that we tend to have a preference for being more out there, you know, wearing our heart on our sleeve, sharing private matters with the world as extroverts do. We always say that extroverts kind of talk first and then think, whereas the introverts tend to think first and then talk about it, but we tend to have both sides of us. So I think what I see when it's really working on teams is that there's a language that's spoken between the introverts and extroverts, first of all when they understand the natural inclination of each of them or the tendencies, then they can sort of work to that, so its like kind of learning a different language. It's the same with extroverts and introverts, if we can each try, you know, both on the introvert side, to adopt some of the behaviors that extroverts understand and visa versa, then I think we definitely build stronger teams, so that really also motivated me to dive into this more.

Rachel Salaman: And in your experience what proportion of leaders are introverted?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well it's my experience, and it's also quite a bit of mounting research in this area, Rachel, I would say about... I would agree with the stat, around 40% of executives are more introverted in temperament, and that's more at the senior levels, and that's compared to more mid-level leaders and most of the rest of the population, where we see figures anywhere from 40 to 60%. It's never a hard science and, like in our conversation earlier, we say that sometimes we are introverted, sometimes we're not. It's really hard to sometimes tackle that head on, but those are the figures that I have uncovered and seem to resonate with the people that I speak with and the groups that I talk with.

Rachel Salaman: And how does being introverted affect their performance as a leader?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well I think there's pros and cons, and I think maybe you'd just let me clarify when I say leader too, when we talk about that topic of leadership. My belief, as many people do, is that you can be a leader at any level of the organization. In fact, there's more talk now about people that are in very low levels in the hierarchy having huge influences as social networkers and making connections and having personal power, so leaders can absolutely be at any level. But I think in terms of affecting their performance, there are some hard realities that leaders come up against who are a little more introverted, and one of them is that they tend to get exhausted by people. Now extroverts really don't have a clue as to what this means, but the introverts just get... you know, after they've been in meetings all day or having to even have one-on-ones without any breaks, they tend to really need to recharge their batteries.

So you can imagine, as you talk about today's organizations, I mean you're around people much of the time, and so I think that that's something that can be a challenge because you can get worn out, and physical ailments can even occur. Interesting, I do surveys of groups that I work with, and I was with a group of women the other day, and they were sharing with me how they get headaches and stomach aches, even more so than some of the research I did on men, you know, there's a mind-body connection that occurs from that. A second one besides people exhaustion also is project overload, so I think that oftentimes introverts tend to not speak up as much as their shiny, out-there extroverted types, and so what happens is they tend to get overloaded with projects and with tasks to do, and they don't necessarily have those important conversations when we have to manage up with our bosses, you know, to initiate that.

I had one woman say to me the other day in a group that her boss kept pushing aside their one-on-one meetings so she could understand what her priorities were for that week, and she found that over time she was working on everything, when in fact had she been able to push for that meeting she would have found out that several of those priorities were not key on the agenda right then. So I think by not pushing enough, or maybe stepping back and not being assertive enough much of the time, that can really affect project overload, and getting more on your plate than you can handle. So those are two.

Another issue for leaders is that becoming a leader, some people think this affects the percentages of why more introverts don't get to the higher levels, and I think there's some truth in that, and that is the under-selling, Rachel, that I talk about in the book, and that is where you stay mum about your accomplishment, and you think, well if I work hard people will notice. Well you and I know, we've worked in organizations, that that's a nice theory, but in reality if someone's presented with two candidates and they know that person for upcoming promotion versus the person that's maybe working harder and even doing a more brilliant job, they will choose probably the person that they know or has been around, you know, top of mind. So yes, that's an invisibility that could be a real, real challenge for the introvert, and this is one of the areas where they really need to push themselves, even just a little, to be more seen, and we can talk about some ways to do that.

Rachel Salaman: Yes, in your book you have a process called the Four Ps, which is designed to help introverts with some of those challenges and others. Could you just explain now what those Four Ps are?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes, Rachel, I'm happy to. The Four Ps was something I put together to help folks to get a handle on their own development, so that they can take it one step at a time and not be overwhelmed, because small changes can make a huge difference with the introvert's success. So the first P has to do with devising a game plan, it's preparation, and that's giving as much thought and emphasis to either people interactions, as you do, to the task or the project. The second P has to do with presence, and that's you've done your preparation for the meeting or the speech, and then the best leaders have presence, and what they do is they focus on the moment, they are where their feet are.

The third P has to do with push, and I love the quote from Eleanor Roosevelt where she said you should do something every day that stretches you. I'm paraphrasing, but it's out of your comfort zone that makes you uncomfortable, and I think that's really important for growth, whether it be to just give a brief report or maybe it is walking into a room where you don't know anybody, or saying hello to somebody you haven't met before, for an introvert that could be a push strategy, and that's going to get you more comfortable, it only works that way. And then practice is the last P, and that's continually to refine and develop that skill so you feel more comfortable with it. If you are a right-handed person, if you start to use your left hand more, you never will become necessarily a left-handed person, you'll never become an extrovert, but you will become more comfortable, and so many people will start to say to you I'm surprised when you say you're an introvert, you know, you'll sort of really round it out.

So practicing it is really like with any champion who's in athletics. You know, Tiger Woods was actually in the gym with a friend of mine recently, he ran across him, and Marty was shocked to find out that here he was, working out on these huge weights, but he had already played an entire day of golf in a tough tournament and had been practicing on the links, you know, practicing his golf swing, and had done all of that and then was in the gym, and I thought you know what, that is a champion, Tiger Woods of all people. So all of us and our skills, we just need to keep practicing, even when we are achieving excellence, we can always achieve more, and I found that the leaders that I talk with do that as well, they push themselves and then they get a chance to practice. Once they have that skill down, then they go back to the first P again, is preparing for another type of leadership scenario where they are challenged. So it's turned out to be a good framework to address that.

Rachel Salaman: It's interesting the example with right- and left-handed people that you mentioned, because a lot of right-handed people would balk at the idea of doing anything for any length of time with their left hand even if they had practiced.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes.

Rachel Salaman: Does there ever come a point when leadership behavior feels so unnatural for an introvert that actually that introvert would be better off in a different and perhaps non-leadership role?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes. I think that introverts will tell me that they sometimes push themselves so much that it becomes, number one, inauthentic to them and to others, and number two, exhausting, and absolutely, if that continues, that energy drain takes its toll and it really can affect how you perform and also even your health. So I think that we all have to be aware of what suits us. I mean, I think all of us, whether introverts or extroverts, but particularly introverts need to know when they are pushing too hard, and absolutely you can do that. So I think you need to take it one step at a time but not give up.

I think that a lot of the part that I see is reaching out for mentors and coaches, people that can support you as you are trying to take on some of these more challenging roles. I was talking with some women engineers, and I keep bringing that program up because its top of mine, and these were brilliant young women who have been really trained on the technical side, yet the ones that are finding they're having success, when they're not totally exhausted the way you were saying or pushing so much out of their comfort zone, were the ones who say that they have multiple mentors. And I talk about that in the book a lot, about having a board of directors and several people who can support you and coach you, because its very difficult being in an organization when you are feeling like everybody is out there and you're not speaking up and you're just not as comfortable doing it.

So I think that you can get support for that, and then continue to take stock, is this a fit for me, is this where I want to be going, because as some people who I interviewed said, you know, I thought I should be a manager of people, but yet that's not where my sweet spot was, so I've learned that for me it was important to manage projects, that's where my skills could be best used, where I didn't have to have people reporting to me. So that's an important insight, but that's true for all leaders.

Rachel Salaman: Well if we can just go back to the Four Ps "virtuous cycle" if you like that you outlined earlier?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes.

Rachel Salaman: In the book you talk about a number of situations and how the Four Ps can work for those situations. If you could just share one of those now with us, perhaps the one about public speaking, if you're an introvert and you have to do some public speaking, how can the Four Ps help you with that?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Public speaking is an area that introverts can absolutely shine in, and by the way many famous comedians, like Johnny Carson, and the list goes on and on, and actors you would never guess are introverts, actually are. So they have used the Four Ps without maybe calling it that, Rachel, but I think one of the things to start with there for preparation would be to know what your key points are, what is it you want people to leave with. If you can even boil it down to a sentence, that's going to help you as you move into the other phases.

Another example of preparation is to rehearse out loud. Many of us do a beautiful job on writing the speech, and yet we don't practice it in front of a mirror or a tape recorder, and when we get up to give it, it doesn't have the same sort of aliveness or juice that it could have if we had said it out loud. And this was a real ah-ha for me, and I know a lot of other introverted leaders have mentioned to me, they do that over and over, they rehearse. So those are just some examples of preparation in public speaking. In the presence phase, once you've done your preparation, I know we don't want to over-prepare, which a lot of introverts might do, is to over-analyze which I've been told, is to move ourselves into actually the moment of giving the program, when we are where our feet are. So we're looking at the audience, we're connecting with them, making eye contact with various members, circulating around, not looking down.

We also, when we're in presence, as an example, have you ever given a program where you realize maybe half way through it that you're starting to lose the audience? They might even be just looking down or some even are taking out their Blackberries, it could be like that. So an astute person in presence would shake it up a little, they might ask a question, they might shift it, and they probably should. So it's not sticking to the speech or the lesson plan if you're doing a training exercise, and being willing to moderate your program based on what's going on in the moment, and I think that can really make you an effective speaker. And again that relates of course to practice, the more you do that the more able you are to flex if you will.

The next one is to push yourself, and I know for introverts, much of the time public speaking is a huge barrier, but yet it's something that is inevitably important in any progression of a career. I mean, I know that you probably would agree, Rachel, that's so key, to be able to get up there, so you have to push yourself. So pushing yourself might not be just standing up and giving speeches, it might be just a matter of getting an opportunity to go in front of your staff meeting and give a report on something you learned about that could be useful to your customer, it could also be varying the way that you present your material. So a big idea right now that I talk about in the book is using more photos in your presentations, and we're getting away from the bullet points.

In fact, I did a program, "No more bullet points, no more PowerPoint, karaoke", you know, so to get it more creative and get the audience involved in that way, and that doesn't take a whole lot but does push you out of your comfort zone if you're just used to doing that. So I think those, I have many examples in the book about what you could do to adapt your programs, and then practicing. I mean, I think one of the interesting things that I've been noticing is that people in Generation Y or in their 20s, we call them the Millennials, seem to be a little bit more comfortable with getting up in front of groups, and several people have commented that to me, and some of my introverted clients have said that they have been forced to do that in school from an early age.

In our education system here they've been doing that more, at work they've been pushed by their managers and by their team members to give reports, and so that's more evidence to say that even though you might not be a practiced public speaker, putting yourself in those situations or being pushed into them is the critical way to get better, there's no substitution. But again, with the Four Ps, you're more diligent in your approach and more disciplined if you will in saying this is something I'm going to focus on in the next month, I'm going to give myself an opportunity to prepare, have presence, push and practice, and I can integrate that into my work. So again, this is a model that really can be useful in everyday life.

Rachel Salaman: Also in this part of the book you use an example that shows how introverts often find modeling a useful tool, that's pretending to be someone else in a way.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes, yes.

Rachel Salaman: This isn't only in public speaking situations though is it?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: No it isn't. You know, one of the things that comes up a lot, Rachel, for me, is folks will share their complete aversion to networking. In every survey that I've done since the book's been written, and while I was interviewing people and researching for the book, that was one of the top challenges that folks had, was the networking situation as being a challenge for them and a concern. Oftentimes they used this acting, is when they go into situations where they don't know people, and it's very effective. So one young woman told me she pretends she's the hostess of the party, even though its not her party, and that gives her a persona, you know, it's getting into character.

I had another young, well he wasn't so young, he's been around actually, he's a technology professional, an IT person who said that he pretends he's James Bond when he gets off the plane for a meeting and he walks with a swagger, and he feels like he has his aviator glasses on and he's just cool as can be. Now if you saw this guy, you would say he's a really nice guy, but he definitely doesn't look like, who is it, Daniel Craig in the last James Bond, but you know what, he believes it. Another woman told me she's Oprah Winfrey, so whatever works for you in that case. Other people tell me they just hung around people in those situations who they felt were more at ease, and sort of watched how they did it. So not only do they pretend to be someone else, but they also just sort of learn in the moment.

Rachel Salaman: Earlier you mentioned authenticity in leaders. How does this idea of acting or modeling relate to that commonly held belief that leaders should be authentic?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Well I think it's all how you do it. I think in the beginning it feels weird, like any other new skill, but I think it's the spirit you're using it in. Like I shared in the book about a guy that I met, and he was at his holiday party, he was the provost of the university I work at, and he smiled all the time, a very fake smile, a very sort of... you know, you would excuse him the first time and say okay, but every time we saw him, nobody ever felt like they could connect with him even when they were talking about something serious like politics, there was always this smile, so it didn't look like it was real, like it was him.

So I think that's an example of what not to do, but I think you can pick up can't you the spirit of when somebody's really trying to listen, even though that's not maybe their... you know, listen to you or come up to you in a way that they haven't before, then you can usually pick it up in an intuitive sense. And I think that you also have to look, the other point is you have to look at how you are perceived, all of us do. I mean, perception is the eye of the beholder they always say, and Thomas Hartman, who is an author, wrote "communication is the response that you get". So if you're putting off sort of a look, sometimes introverts are seen as negative or arrogant, I've heard snooty, if you're trying to smile let's say and putting on a smile that's real, that doesn't look forced necessarily, you know, you practice that, or you sort of just change your facial expression, you make eye contact.

Someone told me that was the clincher for her, when she started making eye contact as an introvert, it changed everything, as to how people looked at her and in her company when they walked down the hall, there was trust built up. She said I didn't realize it was such a simple thing that I could do. So that's a long-winded way, an extrovert way of sharing with you just what I think, but just in summary I think that its important to be real, that people can pick up that spirit, and you often, number two, have to look at what is your goal, do you want to be perceived as somebody who's connecting and not aloof, and you have to manage those perceptions.

Rachel Salaman: So if introverts can benefit from borrowing or taking on some behavior that they see in extroverts, does it work the other way round as well?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Oh absolutely. I think that extroverts oftentimes will tell me that they are purposely keeping their mouth shut, and when they do that they learn from the introverts in the meeting or in a session that they're in with them. So I think even when I was in the process of writing the book, as an extrovert I purposely kept myself secluded during my writing periods to get my work done, and I thought boy, this is a wonderful experience, to be energized within. And by the way, that's what introverts do, they get energized within, even more so than with other people.

So I think we have so much to learn from each other, and we are all made up of these various characteristics, it's just preferences, so we round out our personalities and our effectiveness as leaders if we can borrow from the other side that we don't typically use, it just makes us so much stronger to do that.

Rachel Salaman: And just one final question then, Jennifer, in your experience how easy is it for introverts to change their behavior towards being more extrovert?

Jennifer Kahnweiler: Yes, the Spanish have an expression, poco a poco, little by little, so while it's not easy for an introvert to change their behavior, they can be so effective in taking small steps, little by little, and as you take those steps what happens is you see results, and that makes all the difference. So I think, while it's not easy, it is achievable and it can really add to one's effectiveness and sense of esteem and self-confidence.

Rachel Salaman: Jennifer Kahnweiler, thank you very much for joining us.

Jennifer Kahnweiler: It's been my absolute pleasure, Rachel, thank you.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Jennifer's book again is "The Introverted Leader: Building On Your Quiet Strength," and it's useful for all leaders, not just introverts. There's more information about her work at www.aboutyouinc.com.

I'll be back in a few weeks with another expert interview. Until then, goodbye.