The Power of Nice

Robin Koval: Well, you know, nice is one of those words that has an image problem and it kind of gets a bad rap. People think it means naïve or you're a marshmallow, and that's the absolute myth that we are trying to bust here. Nice really means – I mean, call it one of the toughest four letter words you'll ever hear because what it really means is that, instead of using just power and aggression to get the things that you want in business, that you actually use kindness, respect and teamwork and positive reinforcement with people to accomplish goals. And at the end of the day that's a much better long-term strategy than the short-term tactic of just saying, "Do it because I told you so."

Rachel Salaman: Now why did you and Linda think that this book needed to be written now? Aren't people nice enough? Have we lost the ability to be nice?

Robin Koval: Well, we do think that we need a little help. You know, there's, you know, phrases like 'nice guys finish last' that persist in the culture, or books, and we've seen a number of them: Swim with the Sharks, The Business Secrets of Attila the Hun, or even Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office and, you know, we just kind of feel that that's the wrong message. Linda and I are nice girls and we have corner offices so, you know, that's what kind of prompted us to say that we need to tell a different story and we have been very, very successful, and we have one of the fastest growing advertising agencies in the United States, and we believe that we've done it with, we like to say "flowers and chocolate", not "pitchforks and spears."

Rachel Salaman: The trouble with niceness is that it can be sometimes really irritating, can't it, and it can come over as sometimes a bit insincere. How can people be sure they're not actually making a bad impression when they try and be nice?

Robin Koval: Well, you know, we think it's important that you be authentic. I mean, if you're a curmudgeonly type, you know, we're not suggesting that all of a sudden you, you know, come into the office with, you know, cookies for everybody and draw smiley faces on your, you know, with your signature, but we do think that simple gestures like smiling more, nodding your head when you're listening to somebody speak, simply starting out a conversation with a compliment. I mean, these are not tough things and they're the sort of social graces that, you know, unfortunately maybe have gone a little bit out of style, are easy for anybody to do, and I don't really think come off as inauthentic.

Rachel Salaman: Now you mentioned that you and Linda have corner offices. To what extent do you think your own success is a result of your niceness?

Robin Koval: Well, I think it's a big factor, and it certainly is what prompted us to consider writing the book and, you know, I'll tell you a story. One of our largest clients is an insurance company called Aflac and we have a very famous campaign here in the United States with this silly duck and he quacks the name of the company, Aflac, and it's quite famous. Well, we got that piece of business because somebody that – when this agency was quite young and we weren't well known, who had worked with us many years ago, we weren't in contact with anymore, but that we had done a favor for remembered us and recommended us to this client, unbeknownst to us, and that person called us cold, didn't know us, and offered us the opportunity to go to Columbus, Georgia, which is where they're based and meet them. And it was only through a very small act of kindness that we'd done years and years ago, that we would have ever come up on Aflac's radar screen, and it has become probably one of the most famous pieces of advertising we've done, and has led to many, many other pieces of new business, all from, you know, taking somebody out to lunch 15 years ago, so it works.

Rachel Salaman: Well, in your book, you outline six 'Power of Nice' principles, which are essentially six reasons why it pays to be nice. If we could just run through those now and share them with the listeners; the first one is Positive impressions are like seeds. Now this is very similar to the fifth principle, which is Negative impressions are like germs. Can you explain those two very related ideas?

Robin Koval: Well, I mean they are, sort of, the ying and yang of the same principle. Positive impressions are like seeds. I mean, think about it, that story that I just told we took a gentleman to lunch 15 years ago, expected nothing from it, but planted a little seed that stayed in his mind, and flowered over time, and ultimately became something very valuable to us. You know, we live in this instant gratification culture where we want our actions to be immediately rewarded. And the point that I think we're trying to make with Positive impressions are like seeds is doing something nice may not immediately come back to you, but it will come back to you, and you should be planting those seeds, you know, planting a garden if you will, every place you go because it will come back. And, you know, at the opposite side of the spectrum, when we say Negative impressions are like germs, there's actually research that's been done that it takes – I believe the number is seven positive actions to undo one negative one. When somebody insults you or criticizes you unfairly, or just does something mean to you, it, you know, it spreads like a virus. You feel bad, everybody in the room, especially if it happens in front of somebody else, is deflated. All the creative energy gets sucked out of the room. You walk out of that room and then you say something negative to someone else, and it just spreads and spreads and spreads. And, you know, and just as a positive impression will come back to you, a negative one will too. I mean, think of that person you wish you were nicer to a long time ago who still hasn't forgiven you for some oversight. I mean, it happens to all of us.

Rachel Salaman: Well, the second 'Power of Nice' principle is You never know. Now how does that principle work?

Robin Koval: Well, you really don't, right? You know, you meet people, you know, at the, you know, at the supermarket, at the dry cleaners, and you just don't know who you're meeting and you have to treat everybody as if they could be the most important person in the world to you, because they really can. I mean, another story we have a very large piece of business in this agency right now that came to us because we just didn't know. A woman that we worked with a number of years ago called and, you know, we have a policy at the agency that we return every phone call, even if we don't think there's any value in it, if it's someone we think is just looking for a job, and that was the case here. This woman called and we thought oh, for sure, she's looking for a job because we, you know, sort of, had known she was at another agency and she was leaving there, but we called back just to say, "Gee, we're sorry, we can't help." Well, guess what, she turned the tables on us. She said, "I'm so glad you called back because I'm leaving my present job and I want to take a piece of 40 million dollars with me to a new agency, would you be interested?" So, you don't – you just never know why somebody's calling you, how a relationship will turn out 20 years from now, 15 years from now. Anybody could change. That intern in the office who, you know, seems like the most unimportant person in the world to you right now, could wind up running a, you know, a Fortune 500 company 15 years from now.

Rachel Salaman: Well, that's really related to the next principle in your book, which is People change. This is particularly relevant in a business context, isn't it?

Robin Koval: Well, it is true because, you know, we tend to be nice to people that we know are important and of course we're nice to our boss and of course we're nice to the big client, you know, we get all the information and so we know how to read those situations. But understanding that the person who seems like they can help you the least is the person who can help you the most, is critical in why you should be nice to them. I mean, one more story, a success story from the Kaplan Thaler Group. We have an account here for the sixth largest bank in the United States called US Bank, and they were very leery about coming to a New York based agency. They're from the Mid West; they didn't – they were only interviewing Mid Western agencies and we were the only New York agency on the list and, you know, just thought we'd be too glitzy, Madison Avenue, all of that. Well, they came to visit our agency and were greeted by our security guard whose name is Frank. Now, who would ever think the security guard would help you win the account, but that's exactly what happened. Frank is the friendliest guy in the world, big, six foot three, you know, gentleman, always has this huge smile on his face, and when our prospective clients came in he gave them his typical greeting, which happened to be on a Friday, "Happy Friday," he always says, and escorted them up to the 34th floor, which is where our offices are. By the time those folks had gotten out of the elevator, they had been put in a good mood and they were feeling at home and taken care of and, "Gee, those New Yorkers actually are friendly." And the CEO of the company walked out of the elevator and said, "You know what I still need to see that you do really good work and I still need to know that you're really smart, but every concern that I had about were you the kind of people we'd like to work with, was completely erased when I met Frank." Now, who would think that the security guard could help you win a huge piece of business? But he did.

Rachel Salaman: That's a great story, and I suppose it links in with the fourth principle, which is a little bit different: it's Nice must be automatic and I guess that Frank was just automatically nice.

Robin Koval: He is, and all of us can learn to be. You know, some of us are starting perhaps a little lower down on the ladder than Frank who, you know, I guess it comes to much more naturally, but nice is like a muscle, you know, when you start an exercise program it can hurt a little bit and you have to really force yourself to do it but, after a while, it feels completely natural and you love doing it, right, with running or bicycling or swimming or whatever your exercise program is. Well it's the same thing with nice it may not feel all that comfortable at first, but the more you do it and the more you make it a routine and the more you make it automatic to always smile when somebody walks into your office, to always start out your response with something positive, to say yes before your kneejerk reaction to say no, all of that sort of stuff, the more natural it will feel for you over time, and you'll just do it without having to think about it.

Rachel Salaman: Do you think there's a difference between being nice and just behaving nicely?

Robin Koval: Well, yes there is, but here's the interesting news that even if you're being nice and you don't quite feel it in your heart yet, you're just kind of doing it, the truth is that the more that you act nice over time, the more you're – 'cause your brain likes to catch up with what your body's doing so to speak, and we've heard this from Psychologists that just the act of being nice will, over time, make your brain like being nice, so it will become more genuine over time.

Rachel Salaman: So we should all practice it.

Robin Koval: Yes, yes, and, over time, you will love it.

Rachel Salaman: Well, the sixth and final 'Power of Nice' principle in your book is You will know. Now, what do you mean by that?

Robin Koval: Well, you know, we should be nice because it makes other people happy, of course, but the surprising thing is that, by being nice, you actually boost your own self-confidence; you actually make yourself happy. I mean, it's very interesting, you know, studies have been done with liars and how do we tell that somebody's lying? We are genetically programmed to sense when someone's being untruthful to us or sense when somebody is hiding their feelings, and so we leak dishonesty. So, you know, it's really important that, when we're nice, it actually makes us more confident and it allows you to walk into a room and say to people, "You can trust me," and really believe that they can. It will make you better at what you're promising that you can do.

Rachel Salaman: Well besides those six principles, the book offers a wealth of other tips and examples of how niceness can give you an advantage in business. For instance, you illustrate what can be gained from sharing knowledge and experience with a story about two magicians. Can you share that with us now?

Robin Koval: Well, yes. It's a wonderful story and probably everybody knows, you know, the very famous magician, Doug Henning, but – who was really, kind of, the inventor of modern magic and, I guess, a precursor to David Copperfield and many other people who made magic a theatrical event. Well, Doug Henning was, at one point, a struggling magician who wasn't known by anybody, and he approached another magician who was more established in the field, named Tony Slydini, and asked him for help, and, you know, magicians are very protective of their magic tricks and generally don't share with anyone, and Tony had been collecting all – they call them blueprints, which are the actual instructions for how you do a magic trick, for years and years, and Doug Henning kept approaching him and saying, "Please will you help me. I'd love to get some of your ideas. I've got this idea to reinvent how magic gets presented on stage." And, where most colleagues would have said, "Oh, go away kid, don't bother me," Tony was kind of interested and he thought about it in a very unique way, which is really this whole notion, we like to say, of 'bake a bigger pie'. Don't think about 'my slice versus your slice' and 'if you get something I don't get something', but think about how we can build something bigger together. And while everybody was turning Doug Henning down, Tony shared his magic secrets, and he was so clever and he thought, you know what this guy has a great idea and, if I help him, he's going to be really successful, and he's going to have lots of work for me in the future and, not only that, he's going to turn the magic business around and make more work for all of us, and make all of us more popular, and that's exactly what happened. And he shared many tricks with Doug Henning who eventually opened a Broadway show, which then toured the world and became very, very famous, and in fact built Tony's career, and in fact raised the whole profile of the magician trade, so, you know, they 'baked a bigger pie' together, rather than figuring out how to, you know, squabble over the crumbs.

Rachel Salaman: Now what comes through in the book, and in that story, is that niceness has to be authentic, and you devote a whole chapter to the importance of being honest, but in a nice way. Now I think our listeners would be really interested to hear how your colleague, Linda, dealt with two employees who consistently missed meetings. Can you tell us how she handled that rather difficult situation?

Robin Koval: Well, sure. I mean, because it really took a typical business situation and turned it around a little bit. I mean, what happens when somebody does something wrong at work, bad and they miss a meeting, they miss a due date? Boss calls them into the office and chastises them, and tells them they didn't do well and they'd better do better or they're going to lose their job, and it's a completely negative experience, but what we try to do is, "How can we turn that into a positive?" So these two gentlemen in our agency did miss a meeting, that created some bad feelings with a client, and Linda called them into her office and, rather than telling them that they failed, she said, "You know, you don't understand how important you are to this client. You don't understand how much he was looking forward to seeing you today. You are the best part of his week and that's why I'm really counting on you and he was really counting on you to make this meeting." And it completely turned the situation around, from a, "You did a bad thing," to, "You know what you have the power to make this man's day." Well, I can tell you that, after she gave them that talk and, of course, told them how important it was that they not miss any more meeting dates, they haven't missed one since, and our relationship with that client couldn't be better, all because she put the power into their hands in a very authentic way, and certainly put the message forward that, hey, it's not a good idea to miss meetings, but did it without chastising or raving, or using negative emotions.

Rachel Salaman: And making them feel valued at the same time.

Robin Koval: Absolutely.

Rachel Salaman: Now, one of your chapters is called Yes Your Way to the Top but surely it's not as simple as always saying yes, because sometimes it must be more appropriate to say no, so what do people need to consider before they decide whether to say yes or no?

Robin Koval: Well, sometimes you absolutely have to say no; it's the right thing to do. You can't come in on Saturday, "I can't take on that assignment. I can't be on your Board," whatever it is, but what we are encouraging people to do is, instead of the kneejerk no, which is just sort of closing down a conversation, think about it, well, how can you put a yes into an answer? You know, it's a wonderful technique in improvisational theater when you watch great improvisers, they have to say yes to everything that's put forward, you know, "I like pickles on Mars." "Yes, well that's very interesting. Have you tasted the relish on Venus?" And that could go on forever. When you do that improvisation, a yes keeps the conversation going; a no just shuts it down, and I guess that's our point that if you're not able to agree with what someone is saying; if you're not able to do what someone's asking you to do then you need to find a way to tell them that, but also put something positive into the mix. "No, I can't come in on Saturday but yes, you can always call me on my cell phone and I'll be happy to stay late on Monday night." So, you know, how can you put a positive into the answer?

Rachel Salaman: One of the themes that runs throughout the book is the idea that everyone is starring in their own movie.

Robin Koval: Yes.

Rachel Salaman: And that, once you realize that, you can see things from the other person's point of view. Now, how can that help in the workplace, in particular?

Robin Koval: Well, you know, we all love to star in our own movies, right, we're all – I mean, we are, you know, all a little narcissistic and we view the world through that lens, so, when somebody says something a little negative to us, we think it's all about us. But, you know, maybe that person missed the bus this morning; maybe they, you know, had a little tiff with their husband. I mean, a million things could put somebody in a bad mood where they would make a remark that would seem mean and aggressive, so don't always assume it's about you. We like to say, "Put your head on the other person's shoulders," because, chances are, they weren't really trying to be mean and, even if they are, you know, a little nasty, what's going on there? I read a story the other day and a woman wrote me a letter, who had read the book, and she said, "You know, I have this mean co-worker and she's always nasty, always has something unkind to say and, you know, rather than doing a tit for tat and saying something nasty back, I finally decided I was just going to bring her chocolates." And she brought her in chocolates, and she said the woman was so overwhelmed and said, "Oh my God, that's the kindest thing anybody's ever done for me at work," and now, you know, only has nice things to say about her. So, you know, it's get out of your own movie, co-star in somebody else's movie; make them the star, say something nice about them, compliment their earrings, watch and you'll see the reaction you get. You can turn, you know, you can turn a lot of mean people into at least temporarily nice ones.

Rachel Salaman: And I think it also helps you see your own life with a bit of perspective, doesn't it?

Robin Koval: Yes, because, you know, we all think we're so important, right? You know, we are, everyone is special and everyone is important, but most of us can take a co-starring role once in a while, I think.

Rachel Salaman: Now, for obvious reasons, all your examples are drawn from the United States, because that's where you primarily work. Do you think other cultures need to be reminded to be nice to such an extent?

Robin Koval: Well, you know, I think it's a universal truth. I mean, the golden rule is, you know, not exclusively for Americans, so I think, you know, it has to be reinterpreted in a context of every culture because it is important that nice feel authentic but, you know, the need to co-operate, and the need to work in teams, especially in global organizations that many of us are part of now, I think, you know, crosses oceans and cultures and is a necessity, probably even more so in a world where, you know, none of us are isolated. If you think about what the internet has done in the digital age, you do anything, any place on the planet, and instantly it can be, you know, out there in cyberspace forever.

Rachel Salaman: Well, talking of the internet, you have a website called www.thepowerofnice.com which has some really neat features on it like the NiceQ test. Can you tell us how that works?

Robin Koval: Yes, it's quite fun and we developed it with a Psychologist, and it's 20 questions, very easy, although the answers are a little counterintuitive, which is what makes it fun. And it gives you a sense of, you know, am I, you know, all the way up the chart on niceness or do I have a little work to do? And what's fun about it is there are some interesting questions like, you know, for instance you asked before, should I be nice even if I'm not feeling it? And the answer is yeah, you should, because just as, you know, we were saying, your feelings catch up with your behavior, and a lot of people get that question wrong at first, so it's a lot of fun. And we have other things on the website like a little feature called Nice or Not, where we put, you know, pop culture events of the day, you know, Madonna, the adoption, nice or not, things like that, so people can participate. And there's a blog and, you know, lots of fun things for people to start getting involved in the nice community.

Rachel Salaman: Well, the website and the book are both inspiring reads, and I thoroughly recommend them. Robin Koval, thank you very much for joining us today. It was very nice of you.

Robin Koval: Thank you so much. My pleasure.

Rachel Salaman: I'll be back next month with another Expert Interview, so do join me then. Goodbye.