Bringing the Human Being Back to Work

Tim Baker: Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head in your introduction. I think what we lose sight of is that people are the essence of work. I know that's a cliché, but what's happened in the last 100 years is that we've become more and more robotic, so what's happened is that we've got KPIs and "leave your feelings at home," separate home and work, and all of these kinds of things.

So for the last 100 years we've become more like the AI that threatens to take our jobs, and so it's kind of we're in a very interesting stage where we're worried about AI taking our jobs, but yet we ourselves as human beings have become more and more process orientated and, dare I say, robotic. So I think human beings have got to reinvent what humanness actually is, and I think the vehicle to do that is through conversation, and I think that's the essence of why I wrote the book.

Rachel Salaman: Early on in your book you talk about extrinsic and intrinsic motivation – that's outside rewards, like bonuses, versus interior rewards, like pleasure in your work. Could you talk about how those two types of motivation play into the themes of your book?

Tim Baker: Well, I think we emphasize too much on the extrinsic motivation, the sense that we give people rewards and so forth, but at the end of the day we all know that intrinsic motivation is the key to success in anything in life, and I think that we've got to start getting back to that and giving people a chance to do what I call a human spirit in work, the concept of human spirit in work.

We've just got to make work more interesting for people, and when I mentioned before that we're becoming more and more robotic, we actually are dumbing down work, in fact. There's a chapter in the book on that: we're dumbing down work to a point where people don't have to bring their brains to work with them anymore, they just have to leave them in a paper bag at the doorway, and I just think that we've got to start, well, I guess engaging people with the actual work that they do, not just through extrinsic rewards.

Rachel Salaman: At the heart of your book is the concept of dignity in the workplace. Could we talk about that for a moment – how do you define dignity in the workplace?

Tim Baker: Yes. Well, like a lot of people, I'm curious about all of the programs that are up and running now, access and equity and diversity, you know, there's a whole raft of processes and programs that are in place. They're all worthy, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but I think what happens is we sort of roll our eyes and groan because we've heard these things so much, and I thought, I took a step back and I thought, "Well what are we actually trying to do here, why do we have all of these programs in place?"

At the core of it is that we're actually wanting to treat people with dignity, and so I kind of came up with this idea that workplace dignity is critically important, and you can put all of these processes and programs under this banner, because we're just trying to treat people in a dignified way. And let's face it, there's a lot of indignity in work and we see it every day, you know, anyone that's in the workplace can see people being taken advantage of or whatever.

So I just thought that if we're having conversations with people, and there's two types of conversations, of course, there are people-related conversations and task-related conversations. Well, we're having plenty of task-related conversations, of course, but we're not having enough people-related conversations, and I think that's a dignifying thing to do.

Rachel Salaman: What are some key ways to apply dignity in the workplace beyond these human-centered conversations?

Tim Baker: Well, I think, at a very simple level, it's listening to people's ideas in a genuine sense, not just doing it, you know, in an ad hoc way, genuinely engaging people in conversations around how we might make the workplace better, more effective, faster, you know, safer, and all of those sorts of things. That's an obvious way for managers to accept that they don't have the answers to all the problems, that perhaps some of the people they work with, because they're closer to the work, may actually have some great ideas, and just not taking advantage of people and their good will.

I mean, nobody comes to work, you know, I know we've heard this before, but nobody actually comes to work to do a poor job, you know, the intentions are fine, and I think we've got to work on that basis, and obviously if people don't, you know, you certainly need to address that, but to do it in a dignified way. So I think it's the way managers speak and engage employees, I think that, to me, is the essence of dignity.

Rachel Salaman: And in your book you say that authenticity is key to this. Authentic leadership is a term we do hear a lot about these days. What does it mean to you?

Tim Baker: Yes. Look, I think there's a lot of talk about authentic leadership, and it's kind of almost at a stage where it's kind of like a strategy or a tool. I'm just talking about people being themselves. I find it fascinating, for example, that we're quite different at home to the way we are at work, and the question is, why? You know, are we being completely authentic, and if not, why not? What are the things that are getting in the way?

I think what I mean by authentic leadership is just being yourself, showing your vulnerabilities, admitting that you don't know the answer, being humble, if indeed you are humble, but to do it in a way that's human, and I think that's really, to me, the critical thing, but I just worry that we talk about authentic leadership as a strategy or a tactic or a technique, when in fact all it is is just being yourself.

Rachel Salaman: Your book outlines 10 conversations, five development conversations and five performance conversations, that leaders must have to bring the human being back to work. How do those two sets of conversations relate to each other?

Tim Baker: I wrote a book called "The End of the Performance Review," so you can imagine what I think of performance reviews, but I just think that what we're really doing there is just appraising people. So really what we should be doing is developing people, but certainly performance should be an ongoing conversation and not just something that happens once or twice a year.

So I thought, "Well, let's separate these out and let's talk about developing people." Obviously there's some crossover, because when you're developing people, you know, hopefully performance will increase, and I guess when you're talking about performance, if you're doing it the right way you're developing people, but I just wanted to separate them out so that people have got some clarity around some of the things that they should be doing, or leaders should be doing, day-to-day when they're conversing with their people.

So development conversations are about helping people develop themselves, both as employees and personally. In fact, there's three aspects: it's developing themselves technically, it's developing themselves in terms of personal development, and developing themselves as a problem solver, and that's one of the areas that's really missing. It's intriguing that we're all faced with these challenges every day, but very few of us are actually able to think on our feet because we're taught to follow a system. Coming back to the original comments that I made earlier, we don't teach people to think, so that's one area of development. The performance is more direct to the nature of the work that people do, of course.

Rachel Salaman: OK, so I guess a manager might look at these 10 conversations and just make a call on which one needs to be used, when, with which particular team member. Is that the idea?

Tim Baker: That's correct, yes. I call these things "corridor conversations," so, you know, the impromptu nature of having conversations, but also some of them can be planned. For example, if you wanted to delegate a major project to someone, obviously you'd have to do that in a planned way, but a lot of these conversations can occur in the corridor and I encourage to occur in the corridor.

Rachel Salaman: Great. Let's talk about them in a little bit more detail now, and the first one that you outline in the book is the coaching conversation. Could you give an example of what this is like, and perhaps when it might be appropriate to use it?

Tim Baker: Well, the first thing that I wanted to emphasize there is that coaching is a conversation. Now I think some managers wouldn't see it that way, they'd see it as more or less bestowing great wisdom and people go off and do whatever the manager thinks, but really it should be a conversation where there's an engagement with both the coachee and the coach.

So I talk about the GROW Model, which many of the listeners would be very familiar with, and by asking a series of questions you are drawing out the answer from the person that you're involved with. So, in other words, they're coming up with their own solution. Rather than the manager being the expert, telling people, "This is the way it has to be done and you need to follow this system and follow this process," it's getting the employee engaged in the answer, and if you ask the right questions often you can lead and steer people to the correct conclusion.

Rachel Salaman: So can you give an example of how that might sound?

Tim Baker: Yes. Someone might knock on the door and want to have a word and they start talking, and the manager might say, "Well look, just before you go on, just tell me what you're trying to achieve here and what's the end result you're trying to aim for?" And the person will say whatever it is that it might be, and then the second question might be, "Well, what are some of the barriers that are getting in the way of that?"

So we're reducing down 45 minutes of perhaps potential whinging to just what the core barriers are, and then "What are your options?" And they might say, "Well that's why I'm coming to you." And say, "Well if I wasn't here what might be your options?" And being plural we're actually wanting people to come up with several options, and then, "What do you need to do next?"

Well, that might go on for a bit longer than that, what I'm suggesting here, but the whole idea is to start getting the employee to think about the problem themselves, and to be able to walk out of there a little more optimistic and a little more enabled to solve their problem. So that would be something done that would be coaching, but it will be done in a very reactive way because, of course, the manager wasn't expecting them to knock on the door at the time.

Rachel Salaman: The benefits of that approach are really obvious, but I wonder if some people might worry that they may end up sounding slightly unnatural or even patronizing in that kind of coaching conversation, if they're not used to using those questions to draw out some thinking from the team member. What are some tips for a manager who might feel like that?

Tim Baker: You're right, some people feel uncomfortable about asking these sorts of questions. So I often think one of the tips that I would give a manager is to actually say to the person, "Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions, so that I understand, understand this a bit better?" And of course the person's going to say, "No problem, go ahead," and of course then it gives the manager a license to go into the sort of format that I suggested just then. So that would be a good question to ask up front, and I think anyone can do that.

Rachel Salaman: So this leads on to the next conversation in the book that you outline, which is the delegation conversation. Why is delegation so important, and what are some dos and don'ts of delegating?

Tim Baker: Well, again, delegation should be a conversation. I mean, if it's something very straightforward, like "Could you go and photocopy this," that's a different thought, but if it's something like, "I'm giving someone a project for their own development," that's what I'm thinking of here, and that's what I talk about in the book. So it's about brainstorming and dialoguing with the person to help them come to some clarity around how they might tackle a project, so they might be putting on a retreat or something for the executive team and they have to organize all the details around that.

So I want them to own that completely, so in my own mind, of course, I know that there are certain things, there's a program, we've got to find a venue, you know, we've got a communication piece that goes with it. So as the manager or the coach or whoever, the person delegating, I'm aware of that and I can just lead them through several of these kinds of things and talk about each of them, and give the person a chance to contribute in the conversation that way, so they walk out feeling, again that word, enabled to go ahead and do that.

I think the reason why managers don't do this is that it takes a bit of time. But then again, if that person feels completely engaged in the process, coming back to that sort of concept of human spirit in work, they're likely to do a better job and save time in the long run. But if the manager just sort of reads out a list and says, "Here's some things you need to attend to," the person's just a passive recipient on the other end of the conversation. Well, it's not a conversation, it's just a directive, isn't it.

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Rachel Salaman: The next conversation is focused on visioning, and in the book you provide a number of really useful visioning tools, and I wondered if you could talk us through one of the most effective ones?

Tim Baker: I think that one of the most effective tools is a tool that I designed, and I found it surprisingly effective, because when I share it with managers they really get something out of it, and it's called a "team values charter." We ask people four simple questions, and this is particularly effective for a team that's new, and the first question is: if there was one value that was important to you, working in this team, what would it be? So, for example, I might write down "respect."

OK, so I write that down, everyone's writing this down, and then the second question is: define it. So I might say, I might write down, "Respect to me means that I feel that my voice is being heard in the team." Then question three is: why is it important to you? Now that gives insight into what that person values, so I have to think about why – well, to me respect is important because I want to feel as if my voice is being heard in the team.

Then question four is where the rubber meets the road: what behaviors would exhibit that value? So I might say that people don't interrupt me when I'm halfway through my idea in a meeting and that, even if people disagree, they'll hear me out.

Then what we do is we just get everybody to engage in a conversation around those four questions – what is this team about, how do we hold ourselves accountable, how do we treat each other? So that's about creating some sort of a psychological boundary around the team, and what I find interesting of course is that the values that come up in the team values charter are pretty… they're the sort of things that you and I would possibly come up with, it's not like they're terribly different, but there's often some crossover. And that's a good thing, because obviously if people are on the same page that's wonderful.

Rachel Salaman: Yes, definitely, and to know that people are on the same page is important.

Tim Baker: That's a very good point, yes, exactly.

Rachel Salaman: Well the fourth conversation is about encouragement, which you directly link to engagement in the book. What are the key elements of an encouraging conversation?

Tim Baker: Well, at its very simple level we don't say "thank you" enough in the workplace. I just think sometimes it's good to say, "Thanks for speaking up in the meeting, thank you for getting that report done the way you did, thanks for dealing with that irate customer as effectively as you did and keeping your cool." That's the most fundamental way that we can encourage anybody, and yet we don't do enough of that.

So that would be one way, and one of the other simple ways of doing this is just simply articulating to the person, "I believe you can do this, I have every confidence," and making good eye contact at the same time if they're in the same room. Simple things like that. I think there are two reasons why managers don't do that. One is they don't value it, you know, in other people necessarily; and secondly, they think it might take a long time, but saying "thank you" to someone doesn't take long at all, of course.

Rachel Salaman: The last of the development conversations is the relationship-building conversation, and you share a useful set of five tips here: show up, listen up, speak up, lift up, and follow up. So what kind of scenario benefits from that framework? Could you give us an example?

Tim Baker: Yes. I find it fascinating that all over the world, wherever I travel, there's always relationship issues, and I know it's a cliché, but the elephant in the room, we don't discuss it. Now the core issue there is the working relationship. Now why don't we have a conversation about that, why do we have to skirt around it, or why do we have to hope that someone just gets it? One of the questions I suggest to people who are having a struggle with somebody is to actually ask them a simple question: on a scale of one to 10, 10 being high, one being low, how do you rate our current working relationship?

Now the other person will be a bit blindsided by that, I understand that, but it's still a genuine question, and of course you hold the line, and it doesn't really matter whether they give it a four or a nine or whatever. The next question is: why? You know, can you give me a little bit of an insight into why you rated it like that?

Then the third question is: is there anything, we don't assume, is there anything that I can do to improve the quality of our working relationship? Of course then the leader I guess has some kind of moral authority to suggest that perhaps that person might try some things themselves.

Rachel Salaman: Well those are the five development conversations. Let's turn now to the five performance conversations, which you say should replace the old-style annual review. Why are more frequent, less formal one-to-ones better than yearly sit-downs?

Tim Baker: I think it's more human, I think it's just the essence of what leadership should be about, and just talking to people day to day. I mean, the best scenario, I could give you a simple example, if I was going to the gym and I had two trainers, and one trainer said to me … well they were standing at the door and observing me, but at the end of the workout they gave me a rating out of 10 in relation to how I went that day, versus the trainer who was actually involved and engaged all the way through, gave me feedback, talked to me about this technique and that – of course I'd take the latter, most of us would, because it's far more helpful, and even though occasionally they might say something that I might perceive to be a little harsh, I'm going to get more out of that, so that's an ongoing conversation. So the same principle applies in the workplace.

Rachel Salaman: Well the first of the performance conversations is the climate review conversation. Could you explain a bit about that?

Tim Baker: Yes. Isn't it interesting that we spend thousands of dollars, or whatever the currency is, hundreds, even tens of thousands of dollars on these engagement surveys every year, and people just tune out. I mean, the actual level of engagement in the engagement survey goes down, because people know that nothing really is going to change, or at least that's the perception. Why don't we just sit down and ask people how their job satisfaction is, why don't we ask them about morale, why don't we ask them about communication? So it's a nice, easy conversation, should be, to have, and it gives a very good gage on where people are at, at that time.

Of course, job satisfaction ebbs and flows, but it's just good to get a handle, because after asking them on a scale of one to 10 how they'd rate their current job satisfaction, the next question is why, and that gives an insight for the manager on what they think is important. Then, of course, the next set of questions around what might we do about that, or do you think it could ever go from a six to a seven. Some employees think seven is as good as it gets and you've got to respect that again, but the point is, if it's a six, how do we get you to a seven, and so forth.

Rachel Salaman: Well next in these performance conversations is the strengths and talents conversation. What is the goal of that type of conversation and the best way to conduct it?

Tim Baker: Well, the first thing is, let's start with an upward spiral of positivity rather than just go straight for the jugular and talk about people's weaknesses. I think it comes out of the positive psychology movement that's been around for 25 years, and it's a very good argument, and that is: if we had 100 hours to spend on a strength and 100 hours to spend on a weakness, and given that the training was fine, where would you get the best return on investment?

And clearly it would be working on the innate talent, and the research shows clearly that what people enjoy is usually what they're good at. So it's very simple, you don't have to go to somebody and say, you know, "What are your strengths?" or even tell them what their strengths are, worse to do that of course, but why not just simply say, "What aspect of your work do you enjoy the most?"

Nice, easy way in, and of course they say whatever and they say, "I enjoy the interaction with our customers." The next question around that is, "OK, why do you enjoy that, what is it about that that you enjoy?" just to give some context, and then, "What could we do either now or in the future perhaps to give you more opportunity to do that?" So the purpose is to utilize and harness what people enjoy, more so in the workplace, so that they're more engaged, they find their work more meaningful. Getting back to your comment earlier about intrinsic motivation, that's the reason for that.

Rachel Salaman: The next two conversations are somewhat related: the growth conversation and the learning and development conversation. Could you give an example of how one might lead to the other, and is it ever a good idea to combine them?

Tim Baker: Well, I've separated them because I think it's good to have a more in-depth conversation about areas that perhaps need some work, because sometimes if we combine them we might be too quick to jump into "What are we going to do to remedy it?" without really understanding what it's about. So that's why I've separated them, and I think that I also encourage people to come to that conversation having thought through what it is that they believe is an opportunity for growth. I want them to own that. So, if I was conducting that, and I do in many organizations, the heavy lifting, if you like, comes from the employee who comes to that conversation having thought about that, so I want to have a good conversation about that.

Once we've done that perhaps we can then have another conversation, on reflection, about how we might help that person, and it's not sending people off to training courses necessarily, it might just be a bit of coaching, it might be an explanation, it might be an encouragement, it might be mentoring, there's a whole range of other learning interventions that could actually work, so that's why I separated them.

Rachel Salaman: The final conversation is the innovation and continuous improvement conversation. Why did you put those two things together like that?

Tim Baker: Well, it's all about ideas to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the workplace. So, you know, I just didn't want to close off the options about what people might come up with, and I just think it's enormously exciting.

I was just in Melbourne earlier this week, we're working in this organization of 3,000 people, and they're all having their innovation and continuous improvement conversations during this month, which is fabulous. Just think about that, I mean, obviously it's not going to be 2-3,000 great ideas that come out of it, but there will be half a dozen, there's no doubt about that. So innovation is defined as creating something new, and continuous improvement is about building on what's already there, both of those things are applicable. Yes, we want people to have a stake in their workplace.

Rachel Salaman: So what are some ways to conduct this conversation beyond just saying, you know, "Have you got any great ideas?"

Tim Baker: Yes, well let's say there is an idea on the table. The manager's job is not to evaluate it. The manager's job, and I've got a couple of questions in the book that help people, but the manager's job is really to almost play devil's advocate in a way, is to ask questions: how might that be implemented, what would be the costs associated with this, what would be the benefits? So we've got all those questions there, so you're actually getting the person to talk through their suggestion or idea so that we can better round it out.

Managers need to be assertive at times, too, and say, "Look, you know, I'm not convinced that there's much we can do about that right now." That's not negative, it might well be pragmatic, but not to give people false hope – "Oh yes, OK, we'll implement that," and of course nothing happens. That's the worst thing. But if it's got something that's promising maybe we can continue the conversation, or perhaps we can discuss it at a wider meeting. So I think it's just about helping the person think through the actual practical implementation of that idea.

Rachel Salaman: It's really good to have that overview of these 10 types of conversations. Before you go, Tim, do you have any final tips for managers who want to start implementing those 10 conversations into their day-to-day life at work?

Tim Baker: I often say, when I'm executive coaching, that I think you should be having regular, call it what you like, check-ins or whatever you want to call these things, they're all designed to go for 15 minutes and no more. I mean, sometimes they'll go longer and sometimes they need to go longer. So there's an assumption that these things take a long time. They don't necessarily, and I would be suggesting that you use the themes of some of those things on the regular check-ins with all your team, because some managers say to me, "Oh, I like the idea of check-ins, but I'm not quite sure what to talk about."

Well, we've given you themes. Go for some of those themes because they're all relevant, and of course that relaxes managers a bit more and then they can go ahead and use those themes, and of course all those questions are there in the book, so people could actually refer to those.

Rachel Salaman: Dr Tim Baker, thanks very much for joining us today.

Tim Baker: It's a pleasure, Rachel, thanks for the opportunity.

The name of Tim's book again is "Bringing the Human Being Back to Work: The 10 Performance and Development Conversations Leaders Must Have." You can find out more about Tim's five performance conversations, which are designed to replace old-style annual appraisals, on the Mind Tools site. I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.