The Objective Leader

Elizabeth Thornton: I'll try. You know, I've always been a person that's wanted to make a difference in the world and make a significant contribution, and I was really touched when sanctions were alleviated in South Africa. Mandela was free, there was a new South African government, and for the first time in I don't know how many years there was business between these two countries. And I had the opportunity to bring one of the first consumer products into the US after the end of apartheid.

It was actually a fruit juice product, it was delicious, it was 100 percent pure juice. So I set up a distribution system and got the distribution rights for four states within the North American market as a test market, and was able to get the product into 1,200 stores. I raised a million dollars, had TV commercials, and the product was selling very successfully for a period of time. Things were going really well, and I had committed to give 10 percent of my pre-tax profits back to South Africa because I wanted to support the new South African government.

Then, along the way, things started getting a little murky and, ultimately, I lost the business, I lost a million dollars, I lost my distribution rights, and I was out of business. I got to tell you, because I had never failed before, I had been a very successful person in my life before then, and so crashing and burning to this degree was really a problem for me and it took me a long time to get off the couch, quite frankly. But I had to ask myself, "how could this happen to a person that was so successful and crashed and burned this badly? What could I have done differently?' And I don't want to get off the couch because I could maybe go and do this again."

But then I started studying, and I started reading about psychology and the law of science and philosophy and all these different principles, and I quickly realized that it wasn't just business decisions I was making, it was how I framed my world.

As you started off this session, we are inherently subjective, we all see things the way we want to see them. We see something and then we project our mental models, our background and our experience, and it can skew our ability to see things as they are and make sound judgments. So, when I started to see all this, what I was really grappling with the whole time during that venture was my inherent subjectivity and my inability to see things clearly. I really wanted to put my arms around that and say,"Okay, how can I really go back and look at that experience through that lens?" And when I did that, I came up with some key lessons which I try to talk about in the book.

Rachel Salaman: So, in your experience now, looking back and also as a professor on this topic, what kind of problems can a lack of objectivity lead to?

Elizabeth Thornton: Oh, they're so numerous. When I teach my classes or I do a corporate workshop, and I get everyone in the group to get in pairs and talk about a situation where they were less than objective and then report out what did it cost. And so they say lost relationship, a relationship with a colleague. Their reputation for example, they're embarrassed because they over-reacted and their reputation suffered. Because of an over-reaction or a poor judgment, they lost a promotion they were up for. Some had lost customers, market opportunities, and you know it's interesting, Rachel, because so many people say peace of mind because they end up spinning in their mind, thinking about it, stressing over it, spinning and spinning in their mind, and so their health and wellbeing suffers because they're just so stressed out about it.

So it's a range from money to relationships to customer to promotion, from peace of mind and health and wellbeing. It's everything.

Rachel Salaman: And, early on in the book, you pose the question, "Is true objectivity possible?" So what's your answer to that?

Elizabeth Thornton: Well, you know, I don't think it's possible for people to be 100 percent objective 100 percent of the time, because, at the end of the day, things are mind-dependent, where they're always filtered through our mind. But, in the book, I make a distinction between, and I get people to try to think about the difference between, "I see, therefore it is" and "it is, therefore I see." And I ask which is more objective. And when I talk about that, it's the "it is, therefore I see" which I call objective reality. That's like the pothole, whether you see it or not it's there and you respond to it. But it's the "I see, therefore it is," it's all the things that we project onto a situation. Oh my goodness, he looked at me so funny, he must be angry with me. The things that we make up. The assumptions that we make. That's the "I see, therefore it is."

So, in the concept of objectivity, we really focus on reducing the "I see, therefore it is," all the things that we project on what actually is going on and then assume that it is real, and then respond as if it is real.

Rachel Salaman: So what do people find most difficult about being objective in your experience?

Elizabeth Thornton: First of all, people really want to. Always, at some point in the class, I ask people to raise their hand once they understand what objectivity is and what kind of impact it's had on their lives. They all say that they want to increase their objectivity and then, when I talk about what's the most difficult aspect, there's a couple of things.

One is you have to be very mindful to be aware of your triggers. In the moment, when things are happening really fast and you're about to over-react or jump to a conclusion, people have difficulty creating that space between that automatic reaction and then a more determined response.

So that's the difficult thing and the good thing about that is that's mindfulness. You can learn mindfulness; you can train your brain to create that space so that you're not automatically reacting. But that's an area where people have to really work; it's to be more mindful that they create that space.

Rachel Salaman: Another thing you say that your students often want to know is, "Is intuition objective or subjective?" So what's your view? How should we react to our gut feelings?

Elizabeth Thornton: Well, you know that science says that intuition comes from information or sensory input that we receive and process that we're not aware of. So we could be running along, because our mind only consciously processes a certain amount of data, but we're getting so much input from all this various stimuli, so some science says that intuition really is that coming to the surface and giving us back that response or that data.

So, from that standpoint, you could see that as objective because it's sensory input that's coming to your awareness. But then, in an instant, your mind is going to interpret that and it's going to filter it through the assumptions, the desires, your expectations, your fears, all your emotions, all of that. And then, in an instant, they become subjective, so it's very hard to say is intuition subjective or objective.

So, at the end of the day and from my own experience, I think you should think of intuition as a data point. It's another source of information, knowledge, whatever it is for you to consider amongst everything else, because if it's related to something in the past then you probably have an assumption about it. You have an expectation about it.

So what I suggest you do is, if you have a strong intuition about something, ask yourself why. Have you seen or heard about this before? Does this relate to something in the past? Could I have made an inaccurate assumption about it? Just stop for a second, look at intuition, "Hmm, I wonder what this is reminding me of," and then if you can clearly link it to something in your past then you might be filtering it through a subjective experience. But if you really can't trace it back to anything then it could just be some data or some knowledge that you have that is more objective and you might want to consider it.

And I think for me and for my students, I just encourage myself and students to just test it. Always consider it as a data point, ask yourself those questions and then if you choose your response based on that intuition, really check what your triggers are, how you felt and, over time, you'll build enough experience to know when to trust certain intuitions or gut feelings, and when not to.

Rachel Salaman: Now, in the book you outline your framework for objectivity. Could you tell us what that is?

Elizabeth Thornton: It's a kind of a comprehensive approach to trying to increase your objectivity; trying to look at different situations and helping you develop an objective approach or response to everything that you experience. So on the right hand of the right hand side, if you're looking at the book, but on one side of the framework is objectivity of the moment. So when things are happening really fast, what do you do? And this framework helps you understand what to do to increase your objectivity in the moment.

The second component of the framework for objectivity is really about decision making when you actually have some time to reflect, to gather data, to get other people's perspective, and walks you through a step-by-step process on how to engage in an objective decision-making process.

And then the third aspect of objectivity really is, "How do I become more objective long term?" And long term objectivity so that you are minimizing your over-reactions, your taking things personally, requires that you transform your mental models.

Now, when I talk about objectivity, I define it as objectivity as seeing and accepting things as they are without projecting your mental models, your background, your experiences onto that whatever you're experiencing, but rather responding thoughtfully, deliberately and effectively to everything that you experience. So, when we perceive something, we're instantly filtering it through our mental models.

Now, mental models are deep-rooted beliefs about the way things are and the way things ought to be. We have a mental model for everything that we experience, every role that we play – mother, father, sister, co-worker, boss – we have a mental model or a belief about how we should be in those roles, and that informs our decisions about everything that we experience. It even drives our perception of everything we experience, that's how powerful mental models are.

So the third part of the framework for objectivity really is helping people, number one identify their mental models. Half the time they're beneath our conscious awareness so we don't know what's driving our responses, and so understanding and identifying those mental models, the way we frame our world, the lens through which we think and act, we need to understand what they are. And then the second part of that is that, once you've identified it, see which ones are serving you well and which ones may be unproductive, and then go through a systematic process of transforming that mental model. And that's the third component of the framework for objectivity.

Rachel Salaman: So how many mental models would any given person have? How many should they be looking for when they're trying to identify them?

Elizabeth Thornton: It's hard to put a number on it because we have mental models for everything. Because everything that we experience, we have a judgment about it, we have an assumption about it that drives our response, so we have mental models about everything. And some of them we don't even have to focus on, and I tell this to people in the class all the time because it's really important for people to understand that.

Ninety five percent or even more of your mental models are serving you just fine. If you are functioning relatively well in the world, your mental models are serving you fine. But if you find that you're often over-reacting to a situation, the same kind of situation causes the same kind of over-reaction, you end up getting yourself in trouble, or you jump to a conclusion, or you take something personal that really isn't personal, you look at an email and you assume that someone is attacking you, and if you're doing this repeatedly, that's a sign that there might be a mental model operating that is not serving you well.

And so you've got to look at those situations where, "You know what, I don't like the way I respond in that way; I always get myself in trouble that way; I don't see that clearly; I don't like my reactions." That's a sign when you might want to look at your mental models. Otherwise, if you're not doing things that you end up regretting, your mental models are probably serving you just fine.

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Rachel Salaman: So once someone has identified, let's say, that they over-react too much in certain situations, how can they then go about turning around their mental model to something more useful, more objective?

Elizabeth Thornton: So they see they're over-reacting or doing a particular thing, and one of the things I ask people to do is write down that situation. "Okay, what happened? What was your response? What did you assume was going on at that time?" And then I ask them to reflect on what it cost them, that over-reaction, because all of that is key to being able to transform it. So the key is, "What were you thinking at the time?" "Okay, I over-reacted because I was feeling this, I thought this." That's a key or a clue of what your mental model was. "Well, I thought maybe he was attacking me or I thought he didn't like my performance or he was trying to undermine my work. This is what I thought which caused me to over-react." So when you look at those thoughts and beliefs about how you responded to a situation, that's a good sign, that you maybe are not seeing things so clearly.

What I have developed that helps people at least put these mental models into potential buckets and then to help drill down from there, I've seen and I have developed research around and conducted interviews around five core mental models that it seems a lot of people have, and that helps people, once they read about these five core mental models, that helps them see themselves in these mental models. Maybe tweak it a little bit and then that helps them clearly identify what might be driving a response that they sometimes regret.

Rachel Salaman: Can you give us a couple of examples of these mental models that you've identified?

Elizabeth Thornton: Sure. One of the key ones is what I call external validation. It's kind of like I need others to like me and think that I'm smart – that can play out problematically in the workplace. In the workplace, if you are constantly needing that reinforcement and that validation, it's very difficult for them to work on projects independently, for example, and their boss can't give them projects where they work independently.

Another one that I think everyone can relate to, either they are or they know someone who was a perfectionist, that they feel good when they do things perfectly. I had one student who, regardless of what anyone said, whether his boss or his peers thought he did a great job, that wasn't good enough for him. It wasn't about external validation, he needed to be perfect, he set the bar so high for himself, higher than his peers, higher than his managers, and he was constantly moving the bar.

The upside was that he did really well and performed really well, but the downside that became problematic for him over time was, when he was seeking to be a perfectionist, he became very defensive and over-reacted to feedback. And he said, "I ended up taking things personally when they really weren't personal," and then he said that the other downside was that, "When I'm trying to be a perfectionist, I just assume everyone should do the same thing, and I end up being very critical of people, expecting them to approach things the way I do." And if you're a manager, in your perfectionism you end up micromanaging and not developing your talent, your employees within the organization, because you're constantly micromanaging them.

These are just some examples of mental models that can skew our ability to see things as they are and to actually just perform at the highest level as a leader.

Rachel Salaman: And in the book you offer some suggestions for how people can transform those mental models, including the principles of objectivity. Could you just talk us through those?

Elizabeth Thornton: Okay, so I can't say to you, "Rachel, you know what? Your perfectionist mental model is not serving you and you need to change it." I can't say that to you, you have to determine that this mental model no longer serves you. You have to determine maybe when you started with that mental model and what caused you to make that association or conclusion or assumption when you were a child and then decide that you don't want to frame your world that way. But you have to do that with new information, new knowledge, something that says, "Yes, this is my new way of thinking about it. I understand my old way of thinking about it, but this is my new way of thinking about it." So it takes knowledge, feedback from others and your own cognitive restructuring to transform mental models.

Some of the principles really are focused on helping people develop a new perspective that will help them rethink the ‘I'm not good enough' mental model, which is the underlying or fundamental mental model for the other, what I call compensating, mental models, which are like perfectionist, external validation, control, or that kind of thing.

So, the first principle is there will always be situations that we don't like. Things go wrong all the time and we often can't anticipate them, we don't expect them, but the problem is we start the mini movie in our minds at that time, "Why me? Why is this always happening to me?" Does that sound familiar? We do that all the time and so the principle number one is, if you can remember that things just happen and it has nothing to do with you, that will help you not only transform the mental model that you're not good enough but it will help you get back on track. So this principle, just if you keep that in your mind, will help you problem solve instead of reinforcing a mental model that you're not good enough.

So, principle number two is people are fundamentally the same, but each is unique. Now that's always a spirited debate in all my classes and it's actually fine. From the perspective of the genome project, I think everyone knows that that's true, from a DNA perspective we are very much the same. But the way that I talk about it and speak around this principle is that, just like you now know that you have mental models through which you frame your world, that you spin and spin in your mind with negative thoughts sometimes, you over-react to situations, you're inherently subjective, all these things, everyone else is the same way and so, if you believe and you can understand that people are fundamentally the same, but each has a unique background and experience through which they frame their world, your job as a leader is to understand how they frame their world, but to know that everyone is pretty much the same.

So, principle three is we cannot always control the results of our actions We think that we can but we can't. The reality is we can choose our action, perform the action, but most of the time we don't have control over the results of our action. And if we know that going in, we won't beat ourselves up if we don't achieve the goal. We'll just say, "Well, I didn't achieve that goal but now what have I learned? What's my next step?" So that's a different way of being more objective when we're not able to achieve the results that we set out for.

And the last one is everything is connected and interrelated. And that's the one that got me off the couch, because I do believe that things are connected and interrelated and if you can develop a self-concept around that for yourself, that you are a part of everything else and you are also inter-connected and interrelated with everything else and everyone else, then that allows you to see yourself differently. And then there's no room for even the slightest notion that you're not good enough, because how could you be part of all of this, connected to everything else like everything is, and not be good enough?

And so, with a lot of reasoning, and I spend a lot of time on that in the book, and that's what got me off the couch, it helped me develop a stronger self-concept that was less dependent on external validation, that was impervious to people's criticisms and feedback. I let go of my need to control people, I let people be who they are, and I was able to really focus on my core gifts and skills, and fully express who I am in the world as objectively as I can. And that's what I call objectivity – seeing and accepting things as they are – and now I'm happier than I've ever been.

Rachel Salaman: If we could talk about bias now, which is something that you talk about in the book, and particularly in a section you include about creating an inclusive environment. So what should be the first steps for a leader who is trying to do that to create an inclusive environment at work?

Elizabeth Thornton: As a leader, the first step is just to establish common ground with everyone in their organization. And that common ground is that we all have bias, it's the nature of the mind. There is no shame and blame for having bias – the research clearly says that, by the time we are four or five, we develop stereotypical attitudes towards people and that drives our response to people. And children have no choice so, again, no shame, no blame. But as an organization, we want to be more inclusive but our biases drive our response.

So now that we know that we have bias, then what can we do to transform our bias and create a more inclusive work environment? So, then to have that organization create opportunities for people to collaborate effectively, to work with diverse teams, to be able to demonstrate that they seek out diverse perspectives and diverse perspectives are important. These are the ways in which a leader can then reinforce the commitment of the organization to create inclusive work teams.

Rachel Salaman: Now, you touched on how leaders can use some of these ideas when managing teams and indeed organizational change. Could you talk a little bit more about how your ideas about mental models apply to teams?

Elizabeth Thornton: So, just like we have mental models as individuals, mental models about how we frame our world, organizations have mental models. It's called culture. It's the assumptions that groups of people have about the way things are or ought to be. It's how we work, how we engage, what the success metrics look like for that organization – that is all part of every organization. We don't always understand that, but it's driving how the employees operate and how the work is getting done day-to-day.

So, the most important thing for a leader is to understand that there are underlying assumptions and mental models that drive the organization and that every individual has an attitude or a response to what those are. And the key for the leader, whether they're managing a large-scale initiative or whether they're just leading their team, is to develop a process where everyone on the team is able to identify and express their underlying assumptions about whatever the topic of the conversation is. And so, in order for you to be very successful and to encourage innovative thought and come up with collaborative, innovative and entrepreneurial solutions, you have to be able to make sure that everyone's assumptions are on the table, everyone understands everyone's point of view.

Then you come to some common understanding about how we want to approach this particular problem and that you make sure everyone's perspective is considered and that you develop a collaborative, I would say rules of engagement as a team to be able to address the problem.

Rachel Salaman: And you also, in your book, include a section about being an objective entrepreneur How does your advice differ for an entrepreneur compared to someone working in a team in a large organization?

Elizabeth Thornton: One of the things that I have concluded by all the work on objectivity over the years, and we always talk about it in all the classes, is this one thing: it's that the more emotionally you're invested in whatever it is, the less objective you can be about it.

I was so passionate about helping South Africa, it just blinded me and I was totally identified with the role that I played. They called me the fruit juice lady ultimately and, I've got to tell you, if they start calling you the name of the job that you have then there's no way that you can be objective! And that's typical of entrepreneurs, is what I'm trying to say. So the more emotionally invested you are, the more passion you have, the more that's at stake. If your family's livelihood is now dependent on you, you have much more at stake, and so the least objective you can be.

So that's the only difference – to just know that a lot of entrepreneurs have so much more at stake in their perception and that can lead them to be less objective.

Rachel Salaman: Well, objectivity does make a lot of sense. But as you yourself ask in one of your reality checks in the book, what's the tradeoff between optimism and objectivity? Or to put it another way, how can we stop objectivity preventing us from pursuing, and maybe achieving, our dreams?

Elizabeth Thornton: So, this is how it works. If you believe that you can achieve your dreams, that the passion that you have in your life, you'll never make a living doing it, or whatever you decide, and that's the reason why you can't achieve your dreams, then your mind is going to come up with scientific data if it's available to say, "Oh yes, you're right. No one at your age or gender or profession has ever done this, so of course you can't do this." And your mind will keep looking for ways to prove to yourself that your mental model is correct. That's how mental models work. Your brain is trying to serve you, you've decided you can't achieve your dreams, and so your brain is going to bring you all the data to support that.

So, the other way to look at it, and I have really concluded that the world and your potential is really in your mind, is about what you believe. So just stepping out and believing that you are going to leverage your core gifts and skills, and pursue your dreams, and then let go of all your notions about how exactly you will get there, you first have to believe it and then that's your new mental model. I believe that I can achieve my dreams, and then your brain will create experiences, opportunities, will show you different opportunities for you to pursue in order for you to do that, and it's science.

If I decide that I can and I'm going to let go of the way I will, and just take it step by step, day by day, leveraging my core gifts and skills, so much can happen.

Rachel Salaman: So could you give us some final tips on finding that all important balance between seeing things how they are and not letting it get us down?

Elizabeth Thornton: If seeing and accepting things as they are is getting you down, then you are having a response to it, you're making a judgment about it, and that means you're really not being objective about it. So we are still wishing things are different in what they are, our expectations, assumptions are not being met, that is what we are responding to. But the thing is, okay, so, yes, we all have disappointments, there is no question of that – I lost a million dollars! Did that get me down? Oh my gosh, it got me down. But for me to get up off the couch, I had to see and accept things as they were. For me to be able to then say,"Okay, if I see and accept things as they are," that gave me the power to resolve the situation, to improve it, to get off the couch, and to pursue something else.

It was my objectivity that allowed me to get up off the couch after failing for the first time in my life.

Rachel Salaman: So it sounds to me like the important link here is the accepting bit You can see things how they are and that could get you down, but, if you accept things how they are, then you can move forward.

Elizabeth Thornton: That's exactly right. And it took me a while for me to accept my failure and to learn from it but, once I did that, that's when I gained my power back. So that's why I always call objectivity the power of seeing and accepting things as they are, because, once you do, then you can change everything. And just because you don't like it doesn't mean you're powerless to change it. If it gets you down, it doesn't mean you're powerless to change it. But getting you down says I don't like it, so don't like it – accept it, learn from it, and then you get your power back, and then change it.

Rachel Salaman: Elizabeth Thornton, thanks very much for joining me.

Elizabeth Thornton: Thank you, Rachel. I appreciate the opportunity.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Elizabeth's book again is "The Objective Leader: How to Leverage the Power of Seeing Things As They Are."

I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.