Rewire or Rust!

Bob Critchley: Rachel, I believe it still is quite widespread. It is improving as more and more employers recognize that we do have a labor crisis. There are more people leaving the workforce than actually joining and while many employers, and I'm talking across many countries and I've spent quite a lot of time in Asia and Latin America as well, are still keeping their head in the sand thinking, it's okay, I will have plenty of people, so, while that is happening, there is some discrimination. But more and more we're seeing initiatives from Government, from various corporations, particularly some multinationals recognizing the benefits of older workers, so there is a decline as unemployment levels across the world reduce, but there's definitely still age discrimination in the workforce.

Rachel Salaman: What are the best ways to tackle it?

Bob Critchley: Firstly, I think many employers are going to be dragged screaming and kicking and recognizing, gee, I do not have enough people going forward, but I think also, as we're seeing with the media, there's a lot more coverage over the last two or three years, in all walks, showing, obviously success stories of older workers, because we see them in so many of our other fields. We look at the Arts and we only have to think of nearly 64 year old Mick Jagger or 73 year old Dame Edna Everage and the Queen at 81, but – so we're seeing examples in other walks, yet these people could not get a job in our organizations and also in companies, and I think we're starting to see more and more role models, people who are taking a movement from full time work to perhaps less hours, less stress, less pay, into a part time role successfully, and that's opening the eyes and employers are realizing that they can keep older workers continuing on and they can be very productive. So it's a combination of Government initiatives and many Governments in the world are doing that, employers, and of course, people themselves, employees.

Rachel Salaman: How does it manifest itself in the workplace?

Bob Critchley: Well, it comes from applying for jobs where some recruitment companies will not interview people over 45. I'm aware of companies that are doing that. It comes from companies employing for junior jobs and after a few questions, while you cannot ask someone their age, it's not hard when you say, "You were at University, which year where you at University?" and just subtle ways it can come through, and I've seen this happen in research, particularly when I was working very heavily in the outplacement industry, looking after people who'd lost their jobs, so often people would come back and tell their stories and after about five or six interviews, they could read the signs that people were telling them they weren't going to get the job.

Rachel Salaman: Now you mentioned you've worked in many countries, how does the problem of age discrimination vary from country to country?

Bob Critchley: I think it's quite dramatic. I mean, if you take countries like Finland and Singapore, and even Australia, there has been a very large input from the Government where they have started to develop programs to educate employers on the value of older workers, and also educate employees to try and keep working longer, even if it's on a part time basis. If we think about the workforce of today compared to 50 years ago, probably no more than about 5% of jobs are of a manual nature, which means physical strength is not so important. We don't carry wheat bags or beer kegs on our shoulders anymore. So for that reason, an older worker doesn't normally lose their intellectual horsepower 'til they're in their 70s or 80s, so they are able to still perform at an acceptable level, and a strong level in many cases, in their 60s or even 70s, but certainly, the discrimination does vary. In some of the other countries or the less developed countries in Latin America and Asia, obviously there isn't very much discrimination because people are looking for work and they can always keep getting that work, but certainly the US is quite good because older people have been used to working longer, but once again, they're moving to more menial jobs. They're not necessarily top of the tree at 70. It may be more being the meeter and greeter at a Walmart store.

Rachel Salaman: At what age does age discrimination tend to start, and why?

Bob Critchley: It can vary, but I think sometimes it can emerge at 40. I think it can emerge perhaps even at 50, but certainly it does start to develop depending on the job role and what's required and I think for so long, employers had this endless stream of youth coming from school or university looking for jobs. And so many employers are still thinking that's there and until they're confronted with the clear demographics showing that more people will leave than actually join, this is still going to continue, and I think when you look at discrimination, it's definitely at that 40 onwards, and in fact, I know one recruitment company will not interview anyone over 45.

Rachel Salaman: That can't be legal, is that in Australia?

Bob Critchley: That's in Australia, but I also know the UK operation has the same. The answer is it's not legal, but it's also not said, it's just implied within the organization.

Rachel Salaman: What's the basis for this type of discrimination, what's behind it?

Bob Critchley: I think a few things. One, we've definitely seen across the world a flight to retiring earlier, in fact, many people – we're seeing organizations used to retire at 65 and now, although it's not mandatory, there's been an encouragement for organizations with their retirement funds, superannuation, to retire at 55 or 60, so there's been this push to retire early, and I think part of the pressure becomes because there's been many younger people coming up through the ranks, but also because a lot of the people that have normally been the first let go, in a downsizing by an organization has been that 50 plus employee. So that's, if you like, when we had the massive downsizings across the world in the 90s with all the economic recession, but also merger and acquisition activity in the multinationals, it was the 50 plus workers that were the first to go, and that it probably added to the discrimination at that time.

Rachel Salaman: Where does the onus lie when it comes to tackling discrimination? Should employers be making more of an effort, or is it up to the older workers to prove their worth?

Bob Critchley: It's a good question. It's a mixture of both plus the Government, and I know, for instance, with the Singapore Government, the Ministry of Manpower have done a lot of work on educating employers. The Australian Government, in fact, I worked on a major project where we developed age management programs to educate managers and supervisors the value of employing older workers longer, as well as the value for older workers to continue working longer. So you've got one, a Government motivation and Government incentives, educating an employer, so then the employer is encouraging the older worker to work longer, realizing that's important for them to optimize their own productivity and performance, but also, you need to make sure, from the workers' point of view, they also act positively. We have to make sure for a more senior employee, put their ego out of the way to continue to work, and not necessarily continue to work seeking seniority and promotion, but maybe it may be to even to move sideways or take a downshift to a lower area of responsibility, but also the worker has to be much more – has to remain flexible, be prepared to learn new technology, learn new skills, be prepared to react and respond to a younger manager.

Rachel Salaman: What are some of the assumptions people make about older people?

Bob Critchley: Well, I think they see stereotypes. They're more rigid, they're less open minded. They are risk adverse. They seem to focus on the past. "When I was your age, I used to do this;" old war stories, they perhaps fear technology and there's a lot of seeking promotion based on years of service as against their contribution, so there are these stereotypes, and by the way, occasionally those stereotypes are accurate. I think the good news is they are the very vast minority and I know, as I've met people, and I wrote my first book Rewired, Rehired or Retired, I referred to many of those stereotypes, because I said I'd actually met them when I was helping them with their job search. But fortunately, you're talking of very much the minority and we need to break down those myths, and employers need to look for all the really positive strengths of an older worker.

Rachel Salaman: What about the older people themselves, how can they explode the myths?

Bob Critchley: I think by demonstrating what they offer. By making sure they are healthy, fit, have a "Can do" attitude. Have energy in their – not only energy in what they do day-to-day, but energy in their voice, their activity, because there's a lot of strengths they have. Having been in the workforce 30 or 40 years, they have seen a lot of things happen before, so they can live off those experiences and put them to good practice. They've got wider skills, possibly worked in many different fields. They have wisdom. I mean, one of the wonderful things about wisdom is that we think oh, someone's wise because they're a little older, but it's probably because if you get to 50 and you're still alive, it means you've made a lot of mistakes in your life, and if you're half smart, you've only made them once or twice, so, I think that's what they call wisdom. I think also there's a reliability, a little more confident now in financial. I was looking at one survey I saw of – I think it was B&Q Hardware chain in the United Kingdom, I think that's quite a big chain, and I think it was one of your branches there where all the staff in that branch were aged over 50 years of age and all their key performance indicators, in terms of stock shrinkage, staff turnover, sales growth, were all far in excess of the norm for the organization. So, I think when you start to look at some case studies supported with evidence to say, "There's superior profit," it can come through. I worked similarly with a company in Australia. I'm Chairman of a company called Noni B; it's a ladies fashion group and we have 210 stores, focusing on the 40 plus female. Fascinating with our surveys; we employ a staff member that matches with the demographic of our customers, and we have 70% of our staff are over 40. By focusing, one, on that demographic and recognizing what our staff want, we've been able to reduce staff turnover, over five years, from 40% to 16% and gross sales, on average, by over – sorry, correction, to grow profits, on average, by over 30% per annum for each of the last five years. That's with an older workforce. So it is, you know, once you start to look at some clear evidence that you can link older workers with better bottom line, I think they start to explode those myths, and demonstrate there's a lot of very, very productive older workers in the workforce.

Rachel Salaman: What should younger managers focus on, when they're interviewing an older person for a job, in order to make sure that there's no subconscious discrimination at play?

Bob Critchley: I think they need to look at the attitude of the person. Does the person talk about the positive aspects of life, or do they complain about how their last boss was terrible, because that attitude will carry right through the organization. Do they have energy? What's their energy levels; their fitness? Do they take the view of the cup being half full or is it half empty? I think it's those, sort of things that they need to think about and look at in a person and I think then after a while, you start to form an opinion as to whether this person will fit. One of the things I did with one organization, where they had a mixture of younger and older workers, we created some focus groups where we had some of the younger and some of the older and got them to explore what each could bring to the organization. What are the skills they have, what can they bring that will enhance the organization? And coming out of those focus groups was an enormous amount of mutual respect, and I think that's what comes through on these things, that the older worker can have mutual respect for the younger boss and the younger boss can have mutual respect for the older worker, and I think that will come out in the interview clearly by the quality of that discussion that takes place.

Rachel Salaman: Nevertheless, younger people do often feel uncomfortable managing older subordinates.

Bob Critchley: Of course, because, you know, they relate it to their parents and they're thinking of gee, I can't say that, and I can't do something else, but when we start to look at it, I think it's a matter of them trying to then address, okay, what are the things I need to do to manage this person? You know, and clearly recognizing that each of our generations, we don't fall into generation myopia, and that's the mistake we make when we apply the attitudes of our generation to someone of a different generation. With a younger worker, they need to make sure, when they're talking to an older worker, that perhaps they do a few things differently in their communication. They perhaps communicate performance measures clearly. They perhaps make sure they spell out because older people are used to a boss environment, they spill those aspects out so it become quite clear. So yes, it is, it is different, but I think organizations have to help their younger bosses, not throw them to the wolves and say, "You sort it out." Give them some coaching in these areas. Help them understand how to manage older workers, and how they are different and do that, and I know in my previous book, Doing Nothing is Not an Option!, facing the imminent labor crisis, I've got a lot of detail and charts showing how younger workers can work for an older boss and how older workers can work for a younger boss, and some of the clear communication strategies and some of them are very much commonsense, and just thinking it through.

Rachel Salaman: Another issue that prevents older people from getting jobs is that they tend to expect higher pay than their younger counterparts, is that a fair expectation, should older people be paid more for doing the same job?

Bob Critchley: No, definitely not, because I think people have to recognize, and that's one of the biggest hurdles that organizations face is that, gee, I don't want to bring someone on that's older because they'll cost more. Keep in mind there are other ways you can bring an older person on, so you're not worrying about redundancy costs. Bring them on, on a contract, or a consulting basis, so that they are on a fixed term contract so you don't have those commitments and those concerns, but in terms of the pay, no, I think one of the things that older workers also need to educate themselves and recognize that perhaps as they get a little bit older, some of their wants change; they change from when they were younger. When they were younger, they have greater financial commitments in other areas; often the older workers have different wants. They want more flexibility, perhaps more annual leave. They obviously want more meaning and satisfaction in their life, and recognition, and perhaps a chance to give back. And if they can get that balance or quality of life, there may be roles they can do with mentoring in other areas, but this may mean that they're working four days a week and they're exchanging less hours, less stress for less pay. That may be fine, because what it's doing is it's adding to their working life in a way that will give them a very, very good work/life balance and that means that they will forgo some salary. But, no, I don't believe older people should expect to be paid any more than younger, unless they have a greater value add that they're bringing to the organization, and their productivity is of a higher level, and that would be assessed by the job description and structure of that job.

Rachel Salaman: It's a bit tricky though, isn't it, because older people might say that they're more experienced than younger workers and that their experience is valuable?

Bob Critchley: They could, and if they can prove that that experience can convert and an employer feels comfortable with that explanation, that is fine, but in the end of it, while salary is very important and obviously a lot of people need to work longer, if you think about it, our mums and dads and grandparents retired at 65, probably poor, tired, unhealthy and then sat on the porch 'til they were 75 and that was it. But this generation is retiring at 55, 60, 65 and probably live 'til 90, so if you think of it, you've got people in the workforce possibly for 35 years and if they retire at 55, they're then going to be retired for 35 years, so they need to have money and they need to have activity and they need to have their health, so by making sure that when they get to a point they retire, that it's not all or nothing where they step into retirement and then that's it, they're retired tomorrow. That's a terribly traumatic adjustment to make to your system, and that's why you hear of so many people getting sick or dying within one or two years of retirement because there's no purpose in their life. But if we can think of our career are more like a bell curve, where on the left side we come up the curve, as we get more promoted and take on more responsibility, but at some stage in our life, call it at 50 or 55, or 65 or 70, we start to go the right side of that shape of the bell, and come down the right side, where we might work – move to four days a week at 60 and three days a week at 65 and two days a week at 70, so that we're moving into a blurred work and retirement environment, so that we're adjusting from work all encompassing at 55 to perhaps retirement, all encompassing at 75. I mean, one of the companies that I've found is a great role model for this is, in your country, British Telecom, where people when they join, they develop a life plan. I think they were UK employer of the year just a few years ago. But also when people retire there, they have a choice of retiring fully, as I understand, or moving to the contingent workforce and that contingent workforce are the people who then come back for annual leave, for special projects, when anyone's away for a long period, and that's coming from their own retired workforce, and at the same time, I think there's quite a lot of, something like 70% of the staff, have the ability to work flexible work conditions. So you've got this blurring of people moving from work, so it's not a strong traumatic shock to retirement for them and their partner, but moving into a blurred existence, which I think gives them the chance to have a much, much longer life in retirement than perhaps would have occurred otherwise.

Rachel Salaman: Another issue is that some older workers are overqualified for the jobs they apply for, how does that become part of the problem?

Bob Critchley: Yeah, it's often quite a challenge because the employer feels intimidated and thinks, well, I know they want a job because they're desperate today, but gee, six months later, they're going to look around for another job, and go somewhere else. I think there, that's where the employee or prospective employee has to work very hard to explain to an employer that they want the job because they want that balance in their life, and the employer needs to be able to see legitimately they are talking about obviously committing and working hard for the company, but perhaps they don't want to be the manager anymore. They don't want to take that responsibility. They need to be able to demonstrate that they can actually take orders from other people when they used to be the boss. They need to demonstrate they have flexibility; they can work in a team environment and be part of a champion team and not a team of champions. It is hard, but they have to work hard to demonstrate their legitimacy of their credentials and their desire to do that, and if that's the case, that can work well, but it is obviously an area of concern that sometimes an employer or a boss who is interviewing someone who seems to have more skills and more qualifications than the person they're working for, if they haven't got a lot of self-confidence can be a little intimidated and a little bit put off by that. There's no doubt about that, and there's no perfect answer, but it really takes to convincing people to see that situation, it really does.

Rachel Salaman: We talked a bit earlier about some of the stereotypes about older workers, in your book, Rewire or Rust!, there's a section that shows how to put a positive spin on stereotypes of older workers, can you give us some examples of this and explain why this is helpful?

Bob Critchley: Sometimes, we can describe unintentionally the way people are, and this is both for older and younger people, but, you know, you can talk of someone as being a 'plodder', but in terms of plodder, but it may be that they are very careful and they want to analyze things and be very clear, and you can put a much more positive experience on that. You can look at the issue about impatience. In one respect we can say, "Oh, Mary is very impatient," but it may be that really Mary is just ambitious and I think we need to look and not try and play down or denigrate people and try and put words, whether they're a Gen Y, a Gen X, a boomer or mature worker, but recognize that why are they evidencing certain signs and try not to stereotype them. I remember giving some advice to a Chief Finance Officer of a company who was being promoted to become the Chief Executive, and as the Chief Finance Officer, he always said everything in the negative. "Why didn't you get your budget? Why did you miss this? Why have you spent too much money?" And I said, "When you go to a CEO, you have to put everything in the positive, and your first opening sentence in every conversation needs to be a positive statement." "Gee, you've done really well with the sales," even if it's followed by, "but I noticed your margins are much lower." And I think it's the same principle, I think, of making sure we look at people and put a much more positive spin on things. You know, someone who's perhaps conventional and more positive is they're reliable. We talk about an unreliable person in a stereotype or a negative statement, but really, they may be just unconventional and let's face it, a) you could say, what's a good example? Richard Branson certainly isn't conventional, but you cannot but admire his success. And I think that's the issue, someone who's meek isn't necessarily a weakness; it could be that they're a team player, etc. So it's really just thinking through and understanding and looking for positive signs in people and that's what I was trying to highlight in the book on that particular situation.

Rachel Salaman: You talked a bit earlier about the Antidiscrimination Law that some countries have introduced, will this help at all?

Bob Critchley: Yes, well, you've got that, that's come into the UK this year, hasn't it, the NBC? The answer is I think it will help, help in that it's making people aware. Will it change individual employer's attitudes? It will take a long time. It does need other support, and that is the issue that if we realize that, you know, to give you an example, in 1980 in the United States, they had eight million more workers than there were jobs, and by the time they got to 1995 that was about breakeven, but by 2010, which is only three years away, there's a ten million shortfall of workers just in the United States alone. So, what's happening is that we've moved from an environment of employing by fear, to becoming a legitimate employer of choice. And that's why good positive, proactive employers are recognizing they need to create an environment where people want to come to work every Monday morning, because this is a place they want to be, and if you create the environment and build policies and strategies in place that encourage such an environment, then you will be known as a favorable employer. And I think the employers who stick with the old policies of perhaps not respecting their staff are going to miss out, because as the labor shortage that you're getting in the United Kingdom and Europe and across the rest of the world bites even harder, where we've got skill shortages in so many areas, employees can have choices. They can go not only where they can get more money, but where they're respected, where they're reviewed, where they get feedback on their performance, where they feel, I'm part of a team. And I think the discrimination laws coupled with the labor shortage and employers recognizing they have to rethink their policies combined will really help improve the whole situation.

Rachel Salaman: What are your top three tips for younger managers who might be able to include more mature workers in their teams?

Bob Critchley: Rachel, it can be quite a lot of different ones, but some ones that really stick out in my mind, I think one is to understand what they can offer in their experience. In other words, for the younger manager to sit and look and try and examine what they can see the older person can offer to the team with their experience in a positive way. I think the second one is to make sure there is particular clarity at the interview and at the start as to what the performance measures are. This is what's required of the job; this is how I'm going to measure you, and this is how we'll be able to determine success or otherwise, and I think that needs to be spelt out very clearly. And I guess a third one is shut your eyes. That might sound a little strange, but shut your eyes, and when the person's talking in the interview, can you visualize energy coming through in their voice and their actions? Have they got energy or are they going to be lazy, lethargic, and have to be dragged along? Because I've met people who are 20 year olds who act like 50 year olds and I've met 60 year olds who act like 30 year olds. By shutting your eyes, you're blocking out what is their age, do they have gray hair or lack of, and just you start to visualize, yeah, this person I can warm to; this person has energy; this person's got a can do attitude and this person can fit in my team. I guess that would be the three tips that I'd be, sort of, suggesting to think about.

Rachel Salaman: Well looking from the other side of the fence now, what are your top three tips for older people looking to improve their chances of finding a new job?

Bob Critchley: Take pride is the first one. Get fit. You can't help some degree of how you are. You can influence your hygiene, your dress and a certain level of your fitness, and quite frankly, dress smartly and demonstrate energy. Demonstrate that you have enthusiasm, that's the first one. I think the next tip in terms of older people is: do not bore people telling them about your experience, practice, practice, practice. Practice with the young people in your family or your neighbors, and make it interesting and relevant. I've seen so many boring mature people, but one of the things that sticks in my mind was my daughter's 21st birthday party and my 77 year old uncle came and spoke at that 21st birthday party, and he had 60 21 year olds laughing and rolling in the aisles for half an hour, because he presented stories and experiences effectively. He was able to link with a younger group, so practice and get yourself right so you do demonstrate your experience in a fun way, not in a boring way. And I guess the third one is: clearly show that you're a can do person, you have a positive attitude to life and you can deliver the goods, and I think if you can do those three, you're well on the way to getting back into the workforce, I would have thought.

Rachel Salaman: Bob Critchley, thank you very much for joining us today.

Bob Critchley: Thank you for having me, Rachel, and good luck for everyone.

Rachel Salaman: If you'd like more information about Bob's work on this subject, you can visit his website, www.robertcritchley.com. It's all well worth visiting his corporate website, www.worklifeint.com.

I'll be back next month with another Expert Interview, so do join me then, goodbye.