Set Boundaries, Find Peace

Nedra Glover Tawwab: There are six types of boundaries. And, if I had to pick, the most important type of boundaries are the boundary issues that we bump up against the most, typically the emotional boundary. And that is when we are in conversation with people and we're telling them how they should feel – what they should think about their experience – or we're just not being present with them in their emotions.

And another one that really sticks out from the six, is physical boundaries, which has been such a big important one in the pandemic. Just having that space around you is a physical boundary and there are intellectual boundaries and sexual boundaries, and so many other boundaries that are so, so important but I did want to highlight the two that I hear about the most often.

Rachel Salaman: And you say in your book that we can have insufficient boundaries – I think you call them "porous boundaries" – we can lack boundaries altogether and we can also have boundaries that are too rigid. So, in your experience, how widespread or common are boundary issues, in general, and what do people gain when they address them?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: What's gained is peace. And it is so common for us to have boundary issues that we don't even realize we are having boundary issues. I got into the work of helping people with their boundaries, just from sitting as a therapist and hearing people discuss issues that were actually boundary issues, such as challenges with managing their time, or being shut down in conversation when they really want people to hear them; being physically violated in various ways and I'd say, "Oh my gosh, these are boundary issues." These are not issues that we can't do anything about. Some of these things we can feel much better [about] if we just learn to be assertive and how to execute our needs and relationships.

Rachel Salaman: And your book is packed with helpful advice and exercises too. Could you talk a little bit about the structure of your book and what it offers people as a tool?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes, so my book is structured in two parts. And the first part is really about you learning what boundaries are: how they may impact your life, how your life could change by having healthier boundaries.

And then, as you stated, a lot about those six areas – the physical, sexual, intellectual, emotional, material and time boundaries. Just so much information about: this is a boundary issue, this is what it looks like. Because so often we don't know. Then in the second part of my book, I break down boundaries in different areas of your life. So family, work, romantic relationships, friendships, social media, and technology, because those are the key areas where we tend to have boundary issues.

Rachel Salaman: And you also, very helpfully, suggest how we can deal with the people who are involved in our boundary issues, don't you? You have almost a script that we can use in certain cases.

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes, scripts are so important and it's a huge part of my work as a therapist to help people develop the language. And so I'm constantly asking them, "What would you say?" And lots of time people say, "I don't know. I don't know what I would say.” So I just give them options and a lot of those options are a lot of things I use in the book.

Often, we know what to say – but it is just hearing somebody affirm our words, or give us power to repeat what we were already thinking. I don't think a lot of what I'm telling people is like, "You know, you could say this," and they are like, "Yes, that's what I wanted to say but it doesn't sound me." Really, truly, there are some things that... There is no nice way to say, "I don't want to come to your party." Do you laugh and say it? That might be construed as mean.

So there is no nice way to say some hard things that we really need to say. Now, we don't have to be mean, we don't have to demean people, we don't have to make fun of them, we don't have to name-call. But we may still need to say to someone, "This relationship is no longer working for me and I don't want to be in it."

Rachel Salaman: Yes, it's interesting because you touch there on one of the reasons that people avoid setting boundaries, which is they worry about upsetting the other person or they think they are going to get mad at them. What are some other reasons that we let our boundaries slide or we don't build them in the first place?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes, there's a huge fear that people will be mad at us, they'll be upset at us, they'll stop talking to us and, to be honest, that does happen sometimes. I've certainly set some boundaries where people have ended the relationship with me because they didn't want to respect my boundary, and I have to deal with the fall-out from that.

But, in most cases, the boundaries I've set have been honored. That is the typical response to boundaries – that people want to be in the relationship with you and they want to figure out how to make it work and so they're willing to honor your boundary.

Rachel Salaman: Another thing that comes up in your book is this idea that setting boundaries makes people feel guilty. And, in fact, you are often asked, "How do I set boundaries without feeling guilty?" And your answer is, "You can't!" So, could you talk about that?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes, guilt is a part of the process. And we feel guilty for two reasons: because we actually did something bad or because we think we are doing something bad. With boundaries, it tends to be we think we're doing something bad.

And a lot of it has to do with our programming. Our program is saying, "I cannot set this boundary with my mother; I cannot set this boundary with my partner; I cannot set this boundary with my boss." And so once we set the boundary, we feel terrible because our programming is, "I cannot set a boundary!"

Even if the boundary is healthy, even if the boundary is, I will leave work at 5 p.m. so I can go to my kid's soccer game. That can be a healthy boundary and you feel bad because your belief is that I should not be setting boundaries with my boss, because then there will be some consequence, therefore I'm doing a bad thing.

Rachel Salaman: So, what do you tell people when they worry about feeling guilty?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Deal with the guilt. You know, there's no way to prevent it, in some cases, there is no way to really ignore it – I think when you feel guilty you have to reassure yourself, you have to really lean into your self-care practices, you have to be conscious of making healthy choices and not trying to harm people.

So when you feel guilt, it's not about, "How do I get rid of it?" It's, "How do I live with it?" Because the guilt is from your programming, so how do we shift the narrative from, "I'm doing a bad thing" to "I'm doing something that is healthy for me"?

Rachel Salaman: Now, often the strength of a boundary is determined by how much we want to be there for others. How can we find the right balance then between no boundaries and rigid boundaries? We probably want to be in the middle sometimes, how do we get there?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes, the balance is figuring out what is healthy. Sometimes we don't know, sometimes we think that rigid boundaries are healthy because they do help us feel safe. If we had a history of being traumatized and the only way we know to prevent that is by keeping people away, and creating very tight boundaries, then that does feel safe. But, when you look up, you don't have people. And so that's not a healthy boundary because all things don't apply to all people; all people are not unsafe. Some people are – but that would mean you would need to notice red flags sooner, act on red flags, but it doesn't mean that you need to isolate all people.

Let's talk about this word balance for a minute. Sometimes when we're thinking about balance, we're thinking about equality. And I don't know if all boundaries can be created equal because boundaries will apply to the situation, they will apply to one particular person and not others, and so, in some instances – let's say you choose to continue a relationship with someone who has been abusive – you may need more strict boundaries.

If you're in a relationship with someone who is willing to accept your boundaries very easily, you can be a little looser with your boundaries. And so it really depends on the situation and the person, but having a one-size-fits-all perspective of "this is my boundary for all things with all people," is not always necessary. Sometimes people just naturally honor some boundaries because it's their boundary too and they make it easier. Their boundary might be, "I don't work after a certain time." And so it makes it easier for you, you don't even have to set a boundary.

It really depends on the situation, on the person. So to better find out our boundaries with other people, we have to have conversations. And not like, "Tell me all of your boundaries!" But, just talking to people, you start to understand more about who they are, what the boundaries are, what their values are – and you can guide your boundaries based on what you know about them.

Rachel Salaman: And from an ethical angle, I was thinking when reading your book, does it matter if our motivation for a boundary is laziness rather than genuine self-care? I'm thinking about the example of helping a friend move, which comes up in your book.

Nedra Glover Tawwab: What's wrong with laziness when it comes to helping a friend move? I don't understand the problem there.

So, "lazy" is another one of the words that I'll often define. Lazy can mean not having the motivation or desire to do things that you need to do, and so if that is the definition of lazy, are you being lazy by telling someone that you don't want to help them move? No. But you're not being helpful! You are also not being lazy.

And so I think we have to decide which things we are willing to do in a relationship, and moving might not be one of those things but perhaps I'll help you paint. Moving may not be my thing but do you know what, if you buy a dresser from Ikea, I'm great with Ikea furniture and I'll help you assemble it.

So, how else can we help people? It may not be our thing and that's OK! I love to go to the movies and I have some friends who do not like to go to the movies so I don't invite them, but there are other things that we can do together.

You're listening to Mind Tools Expert Interviews, from Emerald Works.

Rachel Salaman: So, if we can focus on work now – which is a big area for boundaries – what boundary issues tend to arise most in our work lives? As you mentioned, this may have changed recently for a lot of people because of COVID-19.

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Most folk struggle with, in popular culture it's called work-life balance, I like to call it work-life harmony. We really struggle with that because there is no cut-off: there's a celebration of productivity over rest; there's a celebration of hustling harder and not being content, there's a celebration of doing more, being more, being involved in anything and not a celebration of resting and all of those things are really, really important.

We should be productive and we should also rest. How do we find the harmony in that? We have to figure out how many hours of sleep we need, and we have to do that and having that amount of sleep will help you to be productive. It facilitates you being able to do more, but for so many years there has been this idea that the less you sleep, the more you can work. And really, scientifically, the more restful you are, the more productive you are with your work, the more focused you are with your work, so there should not be any celebration of work-work-work-work-work without rest, without living.

Rachel Salaman: What are some of the signs that we don't have the right boundaries in place at work?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: No social life, no family life; we should have time for other things. And it really depends on your career. Because based on what you do, you may have a busy season.

I don't know, maybe for a dentist back-to-school is a busy season; maybe for an accountant, tax-time or whatever is a busy season; maybe for this person, March is a busy season, but your busy season can't be 12 months out of the year. And for some of us, our busy season is always – so therefore we are creating our busy.

One of the six boundaries that I mentioned earlier was time, and so often I hear people say that their time is being disrespected by other people – they don't have time to do this. And I challenge that thought and I think, "Do we not have time or are we not making time? Are people disrespecting your time or are you not honoring your time by stating what you need to be doing instead?" And so, it's so important that we're clear, whether it's, "From six to eight it is family time. I'll check my email again from eight to nine and then after that, I'm done for the day." Being very clear with people about what they can expect from you is a beautiful way to establish those work boundaries.

Rachel Salaman: So, let's say we are able to do that, how should we expect people to react to new boundaries that we establish at work? And what's the best way for us to respond to their reactions?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: We can't control their reactions. And if I could invent something it would be a reaction controller! Because it's the thing we want to do most. I wish I could invent something that would help us to control reactions from other people, but we can't. And sometimes we are often shocked at how people react because they actually don't care about some things. Sometimes they really care and we're like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't know you would care about this thing so much!" But we can't control the way that they react, and it's not the best use of our time to think constantly about how they will react because that part will really talk us out of setting the boundary.

So set the boundary as soon as you know you have one, to really get out of the space to be able to over-think – because the longer we wait, the more we have the opportunity to over-think and talk ourselves out of setting a boundary.

Rachel Salaman: In the book you talk about boundaries in toxic work environments and the case study about Janine is really interesting here. She mistakes her lack of boundaries for a toxic work environment. Could you talk us through that scenario?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: So often we think that we're in a toxic work environment, and we can be in an environment that lacks boundaries – we can think that our boss is overbearing or they're constantly calling us, or asking for things, and it could be based on our boundaries. And I've seen it in the workplace where there are some people who allow certain things and some people who don't. And those people are treated differently.

So, people know that "you can't go over here and talk to this person because they will say 'blank'." They're setting a boundary! Yes, they're setting a boundary and you aren't. And so that's why you're in this situation where you think, "Oh my gosh, these things are happening to me and it's this environment," and it really could be your boundaries.

Now, there are some work environments that are absolutely toxic, there's no boundaries in the world that will improve them. But, in many cases, there are certain things that we could have some structure around that would really help us in the workplace, whether it's a gossiping co-worker or a culture where you have all started to have these "pow-wows" about how terrible a boss is. Whatever those things are, just think about your role and what you can do to improve it.

Rachel Salaman: And you mentioned there that some people really might be working in a toxic work environment. What would be the signs in that situation and how do boundaries help if it really is a toxic work environment?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: In a toxic work environment there tends to be a lack of support; a lack of diversity in views; a lack of willingness to understand, to support workers as growing in the company or in the business, growing or learning their work. Because sometimes "toxic" can be [that] you are not well-trained, and people refuse to train you and you're having to figure out things on your own, without support. And so there are many ways in a work environment that it could just be unhealthy for you.

But work is... We spend, most of us, at least 40, at least 40 hours a week – I would say 40 to 60 hours a week – in this space. That means that work gets more of us than our families, our dog, our TV shows, our friends and all sorts of things. And you have to figure out, how do I improve this area of my life that's huge? It's a huge area – how do I improve it? How do I bring it to a place of peace? What boundaries can I set?

So, whatever those areas are where you're like, "Oh my gosh, I'm managing people and it's so frustrating." Or, "My manager is a pain." Whatever those things are, think about what changes you could make to make the environment more livable. Because you are spending so much time in that space.

Rachel Salaman: Yes, and now of course, more and more people are working from home where we need boundaries on two fronts, don't we? We need boundaries with the people who live in our homes so we're not disturbed all the time, and with the people we work with, so we can switch off from work at an appropriate time. How should we tackle that dual challenge?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: With communication. One of the biggest things that happened as a result of the pandemic, I hope, is that we had to talk more to the people in our house about our needs and expectations. And I consider the people in your house – now that we're working from home – your co-workers, co-working family. And you have to figure out what works.

If you are working at home with an adult relative or your partner and they talk really loud, you have to let your co-worker know, "Hey, when you're on your calls, maybe step outside or speak in a lower tone." So, it's so important to be honest with people about what you're experiencing in the home-work environment. It is now work, and we do have to have space and we do have to have a level of separateness and it is so, so important to be upfront, to be vocal about what your needs are, yes.

Rachel Salaman: I was really struck in your book that you urge us not to apologize when we are setting boundaries. Could you talk a bit about that?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes, I often wonder what are you apologizing for? Are you apologizing for having needs, are you apologizing for being honest, are you apologizing for asking for safety in your relationship? What are you apologizing for?

It's not a comfort statement. I think often we use "I apologize" as a way to make people feel comfortable with something we're doing, but setting a boundary is not a situation where you need to apologize. You're not doing anything wrong.

People will feel a [certain] way sometimes about it, and you can't make that better by saying I'm sorry – that doesn't lighten what you said. If you set a really hard boundary and someone is upset, saying I'm sorry doesn't take away their pain – and you still want your boundary!

Rachel Salaman: So, it doesn't help you and it doesn't help the other person.

Nedra Glover Tawwab: No.

Rachel Salaman: You dedicate a chapter to social media and technology, as you mentioned earlier. What are your thoughts on the fear of missing out and it's opposite, the joy of missing out?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Very surprising to most people – I started using Instagram on a regular basis in 2017. Prior to that, I didn't have Facebook, I think I had Instagram but the app wasn't even on my phone, but in 2017 I started presenting professional content – and now I have over a million followers and I post pretty regularly.

My biggest fear with social media was what I heard from my clients and what I heard from other people in the world, their experience with it – the fear of missing out. I think there is some fear around not being a part of something. Because social media, we can look at it and we can say, "I thought I was close to you but maybe I'm not because you don't even like my pictures!" And we have to really honor that some people are not in the space for the same reasons that we are.

I'm not in that space to see pictures of my baby cousins – that's not why I'm using Instagram! I'm using Instagram to spread the message of mental health, wellness and relationships. I'm not using Instagram to see your newest pair of shoes.

That is sometimes the motivation behind it, and we have to be very clear about our intentions and I tell that to people like, "Oh, did you post that? Oh, I would have never seen it, just text me." I am very clear about that. If you want to talk to me, send me a message, email me, do something like that – don't be sending me stuff on Instagram. Those are two separate worlds.

And so it gives us some idea about our relationships with people, and it also puts us in a space of wondering where we stand in people's lives and where we stand in our own lives because not only are we comparing ourselves to the people we know, we're comparing ourselves to the people we do not know. We're looking at strangers and saying, "Oh my gosh, she has four kids, she's a great mom, de-de-de-de." All of these things based on her having this perfectly curated Instagram feed. And we have to understand that her job is to create that Instagram feed.

Certain people's jobs... These are businesses, their purpose is to only create "blank" and so that's all you'll see. You won't see the outtakes, you won't see the behind-the-scenes, you won't see the failures: all you will see is perfect recipes, you will not see any burnt toast! So, we have to be so clear that this is an experience, and it is not the whole experience.

Now with that said, I really like social media! I've grown to really like it. I think it's a wonderful community, I think it's a place to get a lot of helpful information about wellness, and sometimes shopping, and all sorts of things.

I think it's wonderful, but you have to curate your experience. And sometimes that might mean muting a few people who cause you to "unbecome" yourself, that might mean blocking a few folks who are mean to you in that space. But you get to decide what it looks like to be in that space.

Rachel Salaman: Does this bring us on to the joy of missing out, that sometimes there can be joy in the silence of not checking everything all the time?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes. And we have to be OK with not being a part of everything. There are some things that are not for us, I've seen people having tons of parties online and my first thought is, "Oh I'm so happy they didn't invite me, I didn't want to go. I'm watching a series right now and I don't want to [go]." So I think that we have to have some things in our own lives that want to keep us as present where we are, and not always in the mix of everything else.

So it's very important to not allow any platform to dictate your relationships with people. Because it's just a platform – it's not a relationship. And so if you want to work on a relationship with yourself, you do have to develop things that exist outside of what you see, and if you want to develop the relationship with other people, you have to do that offline and not consider everything online to be your relationship with them.

Rachel Salaman: Well, we've almost reached the end of our time, Nedra, but do you have any final words of advice for people who find setting boundaries difficult but recognize that they'd benefit from setting more?

Nedra Glover Tawwab: Yes. So this book is really a bible of sorts: a resource guide of what to do, what to say, and how to say it, without feeling like you've said the wrong thing, and if you feel bad about it, how to take care of yourself after you feel guilty. Because there are some really difficult things that we have to say to people and there's no easy way to say them. But holding it in really builds resentment in relationships: it causes a lot of frustration, stress, heartache, and all sorts of things. There are some relationships that silence will not put us in the space we want to be in, and we just have to speak up for some things.

So even though it's hard, it's worthwhile to honor yourself with placing boundaries in your relationships.

Rachel Salaman: Nedra Glover Tawwab, thank you very much for joining us today.

Nedra Glover Tawwab: You're welcome.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Nedra's book again is, "Set Boundaries, Find Peace: A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself." I'll be back in a few weeks with another expert interview. Until then, goodbye.