Achieving Success as a Woman in a Male-Dominated Field

Rachel Salaman: Well broadly speaking the book is a "how to" guide for women who want to get ahead in fields traditionally dominated by men. What are some of those fields did you find?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: Okay, so a lot of the work I do is with women and banking and finance but also IT, the sciences, engineering, the professions, so, various consultancies. This morning I was talking to a new client who's actually a documentary maker and there's very few women documentary makers out there, so what would be very interesting to me is that when I first got into this area I thought I knew exactly what those fields were but, you know, virtually every week I hear from a new woman who says oh, you know, I'm in retail, you know, I'm at the senior level and there's not many women at the senior level in retail or in teaching, so really it's as much to do with the level that you're at in any industry and the truth is the higher you get in any industry the more likely you are to be surrounded by men.

Rachel Salaman: Well one of the sections in your book is called How Real is the Glass Ceiling? How real is it these days?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that the glass ceiling is real, there are certainly problems at institutional levels, the way that the modern workplace has evolved, which is always, you know, has been built around men, if you look at the kind of traditional career model which is one that is based on a linear career, without breaks where people, just every job is a stepping stone to the one above it, that hasn't tended to be the way women work, we take breaks for childcare, we take breaks for elder care, we like to move laterally into jobs that may not be a direct promotion but may be of more interest to us. A lot of the promotions and networking comes from the type of long hours culture, again that is very well respected in today's workplace, again that's not something most women can or even want to engage in because they have other priorities, family priorities, so what gets you ahead in the modern workplace, that kind of glass ceiling is still definitely in place but I do think my book does not focus on those elements but it focuses on what women can do to move around it because while there are problems, you know, there's certainly things that women have done to maneuver around, you know, around those challenges.

Rachel Salaman: Could we just talk for a moment about those challenges? You mentioned a few of them there but just to kind of set the scene, what are the specific challenges that women face in male-dominated fields or at senior level where men tend to dominate?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: Okay, well I think there's a huge range, everything from the desire for flexible working, part-time work, the fact that women usually can't, as I said, but often don't want to give, you know, their every hour that God sends to their job but I think that's, something that men don't necessarily want to do either but they don't feel as able to be public about saying yes I don't want to work every single hour that I have in my day, I think the other challenge, these other challenges, the way we even talk about ourselves at work, the modern workplace responds very well to the person who is the squeaky wheel so the people who talk about the work that they're doing, who raise their profile, who are very strategic about who they get to know and the connections they make, those people get ahead and traditionally that's not the way women like to think of our relationships or even ourselves in terms of raising our profile, raising our head above the parapet and saying hey look at me world, it's just not something that women are taught to do from an early age, yet it's what serves them in the workplace.

Rachel Salaman: So just to play devil's advocate for a moment, say I'm an employer looking for total 100% commitment from a senior manager, why shouldn't I choose the man who doesn't have the elder care and the childcare issues over the woman who does?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that what I find is that a lot of the women I work with are extremely committed to their jobs and what they'll do is they want the flexibility so they might need to leave work at 5.30/6 but then they'll check, they'll show their commitment by checking in, you know, online later in the evening, what they don't want to do is work until five but be seen to just, you know, through presenteeism be there longer, they don't want to have to necessarily do the impromptu drinks after work, so the level of commitment is the same, it's just the way it shows itself, if that makes sense and if you can be, as an employer you can realize that women, especially women who are well treated by their employers are extremely loyal, you'd get further in the long run.

Rachel Salaman: As you mentioned, one of the main messages of your book is that women need to stop being modest and start being a bit more robust about promoting their successes and speaking up about what they can do. From your research how big a problem is modesty or humility among women in the workplace?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: If you think about it, you know, when we're young, the girl who goes around telling everybody how great she is is not a girl that has other girlfriends for very long. We don't respond well to, to women that we see as bragging. Yet, not encouraging some elements of that type of behavior really can hinder a girl as she grows into womanhood and, you know, and gets her career on the go, so the modesty is not necessarily about telling everyone how wonderful you are but it's making sure that you get credit for the great work you're already doing and certainly not one and the book doesn't talk about, you know, doing more work because what I find is that most women are already doing excellent delivery, they're already delivering on their job, what they're not doing is letting people know what they're up to and making sure that they get their, you know, their piece of credit for it.

Rachel Salaman: Do you have an example that you can share that shows how that kind of modesty can hold you back?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that it's, you know, we've all been in that, in meetings or certainly my clients and I have been in those types of meetings where there's an idea on the table and if they're, you know, if it's, if a man thinks that he's come up with it, he will certainly claim that credit and defend it tooth and nail and if he sees any ideas or any credit that's lying on the table, proverbially, he'll grab that too, especially if he doesn't think it's going to be defended, so having that kind of modesty around a board table, which is an area where a lot of the women I work with have to engage in, holds them back if they're waiting for someone to say, you know what Rachel, that was such a great idea. So there's an element of having to say actually I think we should do x or I really like the idea of y or I really think Sarah's position, whose round the other end of the table, is a great one, would follow that up, rather than just hoping someone unsolicitedly notices the contributions we're making because what ends up happening is we just feel disappointed and eventually resentful that nobody seems to notice the great work we're doing but really we need to be proactive in making sure they see it.

Rachel Salaman: So, how can you find the right balance between making your achievements and your ideas and your successes known and arrogantly blowing your own trumpet. because it is a fine line isn't it? Especially if you're not used to talking about your achievements.

Suzanne Doyle Morris: Yes, I think one thing that a lot of my clients start to feel comfortable doing is not necessarily telling everybody hey guess what, you know, I've done, is that they're staunch defenders of their team and so, you know, one small tip would be that when you get a compliment from a client, make sure it goes further than your in-box, so what I mean by that is if you get a compliment from somebody on something that you've done, copy that compliment into your team and say hey guys, you know, I'm really, really pleased that we were able to deliver on this and obviously so is the client but then make sure that you copy your boss into that email so that he or she sees that not only you're a great leader but that your client is really happy with the work too. Too frequently we just let compliments lie and we don't think who needs to know about this and this is particularly important if you're going to be going for promotion any time in the next year or two and a lot of my clients run partnership tracks and really after a certain stage, delivery is just a given and it's not going to set you apart, what's going to set you apart is the relationships you build and, and the, the ability to show you are a contributor but nobody else is going to do it for you.

Rachel Salaman: And have you never seen that backfire, that strategy of sharing praise and sharing compliments that people get?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that that particular strategy is one in which mostly women feel very comfortable because they're complimenting their teams. The ones I've seen backfire is where people come out and say, you know, I delivered this on my own and that can get people, obviously if it's not true, their backs up a little bit and that's something that, you know, both men and women are smart to remember, really give credit where it's due and there are very few projects that I ever see, pieces of work that I ever see in the workplace that are done by a single person, so make sure that you get credit for your team and the people who, who took part on it but make sure you get credit, you know, because you're the leader of that team, or whatever element that you delivered on within that key piece of work.

Rachel Salaman: One of the chapters in your book is devoted to profile raising, which is related to this. Is this something that only women should be thinking about or men too?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: No, I think, I think it's something that anybody who wants to take their career to the next level should be thinking about, really the book is written for women because I see that this is a really big issue for women, it's not something we have naturally been brought up with but frankly I know that not every man is a member of the boys' club and equally not all women are equally estranged from it, it's just been my experience that men are quicker to make other people aware of what they're doing and claim credit, so profile raising is something that specifically helps women but is not at all solely just for them.

Rachel Salaman: So what are some of the steps that you suggest for women – and men – who feel they need to raise their profile?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: Okay, so things that I work on with my clients, there's a huge variety out there, so where, making sure that you're speaking to audiences and what I mean by that is if you and your team have delivered a good project, see what other departments could learn from it, you know, and offer, you know, we just delivered on this, would your team like to, to have me or somebody from my team, me and somebody from my team come and talk to you about it, if we can share the learning? That's if you're, you know, starting out and starting to get comfortable speaking, other times, you know, I've got clients who start to present to the board on things that they have delivered, making sure, offering to speak at industry events is a great way, you don't have to start out with the big keynotes to thousands of people, as representative to your company, nobody starts there really. Start out with breakout sessions. It's about offering to write articles for everything from your internal newsletter all the way through to industry publications, some women I work with do not at all want to speak but they're damn good writers and so say right let's think about how you can use that and contribute and offer to write some of these articles, it's about making sure that you're getting comfortable with essentially presenting your ideas in whatever type format that you need to be. A lot of my clients are in IT and they use Twitter or LinkedIn to kind of highlight their expertise, others use Google alerts to make sure that they're up to a high standard with industry news. You know, you could set a Google alert for your boss's name and find out any time your boss is mentioned in the media or if you're really smart, maybe even your boss's boss and find out that he gave a keynote a conference somewhere in the Far East and sending an email or mentioning it to him when you have an impromptu moment as I call them by the water cooler is a great way to, to get him to remember who you are maybe because you're complimenting him on something that most people don't even know about.

Rachel Salaman: You dedicate a whole chapter to risk tasking which is a trait more usually associated with men than women, rightly or wrongly, and what kind of risks should women be looking to take as they grow their careers?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: One of the risks that worked for me, as you can probably tell I'm not a UK native, and has worked for a lot of my clients is trying to get experience abroad, so I'm going to be moving to Scotland in the next month or two and, you know, that will be the fifth country that I've lived and worked in and I think that if you can think about international assignments, especially if you're young and, you know, and you don't necessarily have some of the, you know, you don't have the kids yet or the husband with his own career, think about other places because often you can get far, far greater range of experience in an international office, which are often much smaller than you can in the UK or your own home country office. Similarly you'll get a wider perspective and it really builds confidence, it's a great tool for having people remember you because you've worked in the Hong Kong office or the Dubai office or whatever it is.

I think taking on high profile projects is also a win-win situation in that because they're high profile, people who are not even aware of you at this point will start to, you know, become aware of your name so if you can attach yourself to something that's of interest but, you know, maybe a bit risky, but is high profile, it's certainly a great way to raise people's awareness of your name and the abilities that you have, those are just, you know, two examples, changing industry or changing career are more obvious ones.

Rachel Salaman: But how do you actually know which ones you should take and which you should pass by if taking risks is not in your nature and you just don't feel comfortable at all doing it?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: Okay, well a great one is that, you know, if you hear about a potential opportunity look to see who else is involved, if there's people on it or people who are associated with it that you would like to know better, or more saliently that you would like them to know you better that's a great sign that this might be a good project for you. If it's something that sounds inherently interesting, you know, it's amazing what kind of passion and what kind of energy we can summon for projects that just sound like they're going to be fun, so don't take something that's high profile if you, if it doesn't sound interesting and if it's not working with a group of people that you think you could get onboard with. Similarly if it has skills that you think will suit you in, you know, that you might need in a few years, don't just be thinking about what you're doing in this job but what skills will you need for the jobs you want in the future. And then say well will this project help me with that, do I need to get savvier about the Caspian markets? You know, I have, I work with women who are traders in that area and so we'll find, we'll look for projects where pieces or conferences to attend, they will heighten that knowledge about that area, so they can really develop a niche and a, you know, an expertise that is, that is theirs alone, around those areas.

Rachel Salaman: Well one of the most useful sections of your book offers some great practical tips on improving your communications style. How much does communication style play into gender issues in the workplace?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that it's important, I think it's something that is so ingrained in us, we don't even realize it, I'll give you two examples, one is the way women will often have what I call the kind of helping professions up-tick at the end of a sentence where they'll say, you know, what do people think about this project? And it's a question and you're looking for agreement, you're looking for consensus but you're looking for approval and I hear that sometimes with women who know exactly what they think about this project and they're not really looking for approval, they want to express their opinion but that sounds even in its tenor, that sounds very different from this is what I think of this project. Similarly we do this to ourselves all the time but we give ourselves, we proceed comments with hedges and qualifiers and what I mean by that is, you know, how many times have you heard yourself say this is just my opinion but, or I'm not sure if anybody else agrees but I find myself doing that, I'm thinking it's, it's crazy but, you know, here's a little bit of complicated careers advice, let's not do that.

Rachel Salaman: It's habits isn't it?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: It is habits, it's habits that we have, have grown over, you know, a lifetime of speaking with people but they don't necessarily serve us well in the workplace, especially in situations where it's really important to be seen as a thought leader and someone to take seriously.

Rachel Salaman: So the way round it is just to be aware of our bad habits and try to fix them when we're in the workplace?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think so, being aware of them, you know, something I encourage my clients is to, when they hear people mention, have good ideas around the table, second, and what I mean by that is women will often in a meeting assume that every comment they've got to make has got to be just so awe-inspiring and original and thought-provoking and in a meeting the men know that a perfectly valid comment, one that gives them credit for contributing is when they just say I really like John's idea, because 1) they've spoken up, they've shown that they've got an opinion and 2) they've created a mini alliance at least for that meeting with John, so you don't always have to have the most profound contributions because what often happens is and you know, I used to do this myself is I would wait for that perfect comment to make in a meeting and I'd find the meeting was over and people are pushing away from their chairs and I wanted to say oh I haven't yet said my profound comment, I've been waiting for a moment to put it in there and I haven't said anything and I would be really disappointed with myself but I don't necessarily, you know, what I learned is I don't necessarily have to wait for those perfect comments, that just getting in and participating was more than half the battle.

Rachel Salaman: You mentioned earlier about how people might use public speaking to raise their profile and there's a section in your book with some really useful tips about how to become a better public speaker. Could you share a couple of those tips here?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: One thing that almost any woman could do, I think sometimes people get hung up about I'm not sure I'll be approved for presentation skills training and if you're in that boat and you're not sure that you can get it privately, I will always recommend Toastmasters which is a world-wide organization that is extremely low cost and really is a great way to go to meetings every couple of weeks and get in the habit of speaking and, and what I mean by that is you'll do a five minute presentation and sometimes you'll do impromptu speaking but what it does it's amazing to see people from the start to where they finish, how much more comfortable they are just getting up and standing in front of an audience and expressing their opinion on something, anything for five to seven minutes and it's just a really great way to grow confidence in your ability to stand on your feet and express yourself. That's a very cheap option but one that's, you know, really, really valid. I think the other is to like a lot of successful people is agree to things and then worry about how you'll do them, so what I mean by that is look for those opportunities where you can speak, so would you like, you know, us to do a presentation on x? Or if somebody says would you be willing to speak on y? Say yes and then worry about it later, don't say oh I don't know if I feel ready yet or I don't know if we even have data yet or whatever it is because what happens is it sends a subtle message to that person that you're not ready, that you're not willing to speak and the opportunity won't come again, they won't ask you again, so just get into the habit and also like most things if you know you've said yes to it, you'll brush up, you'll get there but if you didn't say yes in the first place you have no onus to act.

Rachel Salaman: Well another chapter deals with the importance of networking. What issues do women need to think about here that perhaps don't apply to men?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that in terms of networking one of the biggest differences I see is that sometimes women have had a bad rap for not wanting to network and I do not find that true at all, women are very happy to network but what that means for them is they can't do the impromptu, at 5.30 someone says oh who fancies a round at the local pub? You know, they can't immediately say yes, I reckon I'll go, you know, at a moment's notice, what they like to do, and I attend a lot of women's networks, is they like to plan it, so what that means is, okay I know in three weeks on a Wednesday that I'm going to attend a networking event that has a point, you know, maybe there's a speaker or there's an activity and I'll attend it from six to eight on that Wednesday night and then I'll get child-care or I can make sure that my husband's home to feed the dog or whatever it is and they're happy to go, it's, it's just that they can't do the impromptu. Our modern workplace has really revolved around the impromptu with the late-night drinks, they just aren't really feasible for a lot of women, so I encourage a lot of my clients to not necessarily beat yourself up because you don't want to have a pint at eleven o'clock at night but rather say okay I can't do that or I don't want to do that but what would I like to do? Okay, well actually I like to have lunch or I could make time, I could make twenty minutes to have a coffee with someone in a different department that maybe I only speak to on the phone but actually getting to know them face to face would probably not be a bad idea. Or, you know, maybe breakfast meetings, another reason in the book I talk about breakfast meetings or lunches, particularly breakfast meetings is because for a lot of women I work with, their clients and their colleagues are men and they don't necessarily want to have the issue of alcohol come up because perhaps they're happy to drink but they never want it to be misconstrued and I've worked with women for whom going out to dinner or drinks late at night could be misconstrued or, you know, or just puts them in a difficult position, so having drinks, you know, first thing in the morning is, is pretty much a no go even in most industries and keeps them feeling more in charge, plus it gives them a perfect opportunity to say great for breakfast, you know, I've got a ten o'clock meeting or I've got a nine o'clock meeting, I've really got to get into the office.

Rachel Salaman: Now most of the interviews that fed into this book, were with female leaders from across a range of sectors. What challenges do female leaders in particular face in male-dominated fields?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that, I think the most senior women have, you know, some of the challenges they have are making sure that their voices are heard in a way that they're comfortable with, I think that sometimes we assume that women at the top have made it and their challenges are kind of done and dusted if you will, but they still have issues around tokenism which is the idea that sometimes though if we have one black person or one woman on our board, we've done our bit for diversity and what can happen is if you're that one woman sitting in the boardroom or whatever the senior position is, when the issue of gender comes up or any issue really and she speaks her mind people will think oh that must be what women think, even if it's very subconscious, whereas if John raises his hand and says well this is what I think, it's taken as John's opinion, right or wrong. So there can be a real pressure to kind of speak, to not want to be seen as representative of your whole gender and that's a really big burden for senior women to hold because there aren't very many senior women in those positions and so making sure that they come across in a way that does them well without doing them a disservice or other women do a disservice is, you know, it's a real balancing act.

Rachel Salaman: What's the best way to address that challenge?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think that for many of the women I work with, as they grow in stature there is an increased sense of confidence that I often don't see as much with some of my younger clients and a lot of them just grow into it and realize that there will be an element of self-doubt which comes from, you know, am I on this board because of the, the role that I have as a woman or am I here because of my opinion? But actually at the end of the day you have to remember that no man on that board has got there through sheer delivery alone and that men use whatever tools they can, whether that's connections to old alumni members or letting people know what they're up to in their profile raising and that we mustn't eschew that and say well I, you know, there's no glory and certainly no fun in saying I got there all by myself because the truth is no successful person ever gets to the top in those positions all by themselves.

Rachel Salaman: From everything you've said it's clear that you don't think women should try to be like men, one of the boys, but you're also advocating that they keep so-called womanly traits in check as well, things like getting emotional and being modest about their achievements and so forth. So how would you describe the ideal approach for a woman who wants to get ahead in her chosen career?

Suzanne Doyle Morris: I think the ideal approach for either a man or a woman is more of a gender neutral one, so somebody who makes sure that they get credit for what they're doing, I wish that promotions and advancement was solely on merit and solely on delivery but, you know, I work in the real world and I've never worked in an ideal world and so for, my comment in my books is not for people who work in an ideal world, it's for people who have to realize that that is part of a game and so I would love to see a workplace where that wasn't as necessary where, where we could be a bit less masculine perhaps in our search for recognition and kudos and things of that nature but I think that until we get there the women will have to ramp up some of those qualities and men ideally should, should tone down some of the bravado, some of the machismo that you see in a modern boardroom so that we're all moving towards a more gender neutral approach.

Rachel Salaman: Suzanne Doyle Morris thank you very much for joining us.

Suzanne Doyle Morris: Thank you very much for having me Rachel.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Suzanne's book again is Beyond the Boys' Club: Strategies for Achieving Career Success as a Woman Working a Male-Dominated Field. You can find out more about Suzanne and her work at her website www.beyondtheboysclub.com.

I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview, until then goodbye.