Small Talk

Debra begins by describing how she defines small talk.

Debra Fine: Small talk should be viewed as the appetiser for any relationship. So, if you start a relationship, let’s say in business, and it’s a negotiation or a presentation or something along those lines, and you don’t start with small talk meaning you haven’t chit chatted, you’ll possibly close the sale, the negotiation may or may not go well, the presentation will go well, but you won’t develop a relationship.

People do business with their friends and by friends I mean the ability to connect with people outside of the business conversation. So it’s not the most important ingredient but it is an important ingredient in building a relationship.

Female interviewer: What are the benefits of small talk? What can it help us achieve?

Debra Fine: Well, it builds those business friendships. More importantly than anything, it helps people feel comfortable with you. So I assume the burden of making people feel comfortable when they are with me, whether I am at a table of eight, whether I am walking down the hall, because you have invited me to your place of business, I assume the burden of coming up with things to talk about to make you feel comfortable.

Most people think like I used to think, which is, ‘Wow, you know, I hope I hit it off with this person who’s going to walk me down the hall, this decision-maker; wow, I hope I hit it off with somebody at this networking opportunity.’ But instead, now instead of hoping I will hit it off, what I do now is I assume the burden of making people feel comfortable when they are with me and I know I’ll hit it off with them.

Female interviewer: What do you think are the biggest misconceptions about small talk?

Debra Fine: That people that small talk are stupid and uneducated. I work with a lot of high level companies and the reason they hire me is because their people think it was stupid but the problem is now they need to know how to do it or they can’t interact well at a convention or a conference or they are making a presentation to a potential client and the presentation they have got down pat but they don’t know how to chit chat during the coffee break, so guess what, that client picks a different organisation to use rather than them because they didn’t feel comfortable.

You need to sincerely want to get to know people and not for more than a few minutes necessarily. You be the best judge. For instance, when you go to a restaurant and you are dining with a client or a customer and then you are waiting to pay the bill, that is the time for small talk and you best be genuine. If you have nothing to talk about at that table now that the business conversation is done, it’s awkward so you have to truly be interested in people and learning about them outside of the business at hand.

Female interviewer: If we know we are going to need to engage in small talk either with new contacts or people we have met before, how should we prepare for these conversations?

Debra Fine: I never walk into a party, a meeting, a conference, I don’t walk into anything without three things to talk about in my head. At a conference it is easy, you just base it on the free information you have about the occasion so, ‘What brought you to this conference?’, ‘What did you think about the speaker this morning?’, ‘What did you see in the exhibit hall that caught your interest?’, ‘What other conferences do you attend each year?’ But I might be ready with a couple of other things. ‘What did you enjoy the most about your summer?’ ‘What are you looking forward to at holiday time?’ I mean, all those generic type things are based on free information as well.

Now here’s another one and it’s one of my favourites in a professional setting. ‘What got you interested in your field of expertise?’ or ‘How did you come up with that idea?’ Be prepared to talk about projects that you talked to that person about six months ago, that they just changed to flex time or that they bought on some new employees or that they just took on social media within their business. Even if you don’t take note, just for one minute before you enter the restaurant remind yourself, what do I know about this person because the worst time to try to remember that is while you are sitting and talking to that person.

Female interviewer: What kind of questions should we be asking when we meet someone for the first time and what sort of questions should we avoid?

Debra Fine: Never ask questions that put somebody on the spot, where they have to give you a personal answer. Instead, ask questions that give them the opportunity to not only not be uncomfortable but give you more. So when you say to someone, ‘What’s been going on in your life since the last time I saw you?’, you are more likely to get a full sentence and you are not pinning them down to tell you something that they don’t want to talk about.

This is my favourite question to ask in a professional setting for small talk. ‘What keeps you busy outside of work?’ You will probably get one sentence and the sentence could be anything from ‘I exercise on a weekend’ or ‘I go to a French class’. That’s how you will find out if they are married, if they have kids, if they like to garden, if they have a dog, if they like to travel. It really is amazing what you’ll learn.

Female interviewer: In your experience, what topics of conversation usually prove most successful for small talk with new contacts?

Debra Fine: Everyone talks about food. I’ve been in Vietnam, I’ve been in Singapore, I’ve been in Australia and South Africa. Tell me about food and most people are interested in talking about that.

The other thing that’s easy to talk about is if you had a weekend off yourself where you didn’t have to work how would you spend your time?

Female interviewer: What should we do if we feel a small talk conversation isn’t going particularly well?

Debra Fine: First of all make sure that you have contributed. If you have asked questions, you need to give verbal cues to let people know that you are really interested in their responses. Just to say, ‘Aw, aha, oh, that’s good, oh really.’ So give people verbal cues that you are following along and also make sure your body language isn’t sending a different message.

Okay, so, you know I have exhibited good body language, I’ve given verbal cues, I’ve maintained eye contact, you know, I’m a warm person, I’ve asked intelligent questions but this person is either showing no interest in me or it’s awkward. I sense from their body language and their interaction that they would just as soon exit, and so this is what I say, end the conversation.

You can’t make somebody talk to you that doesn’t want to talk to you. Always remember that they may have an agenda. Their agenda may be someone else just entered the room and they’d rather, they want to talk to them; that’s why they went to the event.

Don’t leave a conversation where you sort of mumble and go, ‘Well, nice talking to you’, and you walk away. End it on a positive note. So the best way to end a conversation is number one, show appreciation. ‘It was interesting learning about the project you are working on’ or ‘That sounded like a great trip.’ And then if you want to connect with them for business, issue the invitation.’ Would it be okay with you if I email you next week?’

It doesn’t mean it’s not a success if you feel like you are hitting a wall. It is not necessarily because of you. It could be because of them.

Female interviewer: How else can we bring a small talk conversation to an end?

Debra Fine: Well, the best way is to give what I call the white flag. The white flag is what they use in car racing and it indicates to the drivers that there is one more lap and then the race is going to be over. We’re going to do that in conversation.

If we’re at a function I might say to you, ‘Wow, that project sounds interesting; I’d love to hear what the hardest part about the project has been before I take off, I see somebody over there I need to catch up with before we sit down for lunch.’

Of course you can say, ‘I need to get some coffee, I need to get to a meeting.’ This is where people blow it. They say they need to do something, ‘I need to get coffee’, and on my way to the coffee pot I run into somebody else that I know and I go, ‘John, it is so good to see you, how have you been?’ This is how people burn bridges.

I do whatever I say I was going to do so then I don’t hurt anybody’s feelings. If I say I am going to get coffee, then when I run into John I’ll say, ‘John, give me a second, I need to go get some coffee, I’ll be right back, I’d like to catch up.’ Or I’ll say, ‘John, why don’t you join me? I need to get some coffee.’

Female interviewer: What about engaging in small talk with a group? Does this require a different approach?

Debra Fine: First of all how do you break into a group? People always want to know that. Breaking into a group is much harder than walking up to someone who is by themselves. If you even know somebody slightly in the group that makes it a whole bunch easier. You just say, ‘Hey, you know, it’s good to see you again Jo, I don’t want to interrupt’, and what I am really hoping for is that Jo will include me in the conversation.

When I don’t know anybody, I just walk up to a group and say, ‘I don’t know anybody here, would you mind if I joined in?’ One out of ten, twenty times it feels awkward; they were talking about something and they didn’t want to include somebody else, they are good old friends, and then I just quickly make my leave. On the other hand, lots of times people really appreciate that freshness of saying, ‘I don’t know a soul here, I’d like to get to know people here, what are you all talking about?’, and just join the conversation.

The other thing that’s really important with groups is to introduce people to other people and it’s a leadership tool. I’ll reach my hand across the table: ‘Hi, I’m Debra Fine’, they’ll say their name is Mary-Anne Gold, Mary-Anne; this is Jessica, and include her in the conversation. Now here comes somebody else and sits at the table. ‘Excuse me a second’, ‘Hi, I’m Debra’, ‘Oh, Jo’, ‘Jo, this is Mary-Anne and this is Jessica. We are talking about the speaker today and I guess nobody has ever heard anything about them, do you know anything about them Jo?’

Now when somebody does that, it is about as impressive as it gets.

Female interviewer: When we are chatting to people at the start of a meeting, how can we make a smooth transition from small talk to big talk?

Debra Fine: I really have rules for myself. When I walk into a meeting with someone, primary focus is that business conversation, the interview, the presentation, the negotiation, but I am going to frame that business conversation with small talk. So it is just a couple of minutes in the beginning and if I can get away with it a couple of minutes at the end. Because if I went there with the goal of a business conversation, that needs to be my focus and I need to be the one that assumes the burden of making sure that happens.

Before you ask them a question about business, show appreciation, you acknowledge what you have heard and that it was interesting or ‘this sounds like fun’ or ‘good for you’ or anything like that.

Female interviewer: What are some of the most common mistakes people make with small talk?

Debra Fine: This is what a lot of us do at functions. We like to be with people that we either know already or we are familiar with because they are from the same industry we are from, talk the same jargon we talk. So we don’t leave those people to talk to new people and yet the reason most of us should be going to functions, networking events is to get to know people, people that we don’t know and for them to get to know us.

If it’s time to move on so that you can make the most of this opportunity, then move on. Most of us are thrilled when somebody walks up to us and engages us in conversation. So why don’t we do it? If you want the rewards of what great conversation can bring and by rewards I mean clients, customers, new jobs, new opportunities, you should be willing to take the risk to walk up to new people.

Female interviewer: Thank you for listening to our interview with Debra Fine. For further advice and guidance on small talk and other networking skills, why not take a look at some of the recommended resources at the bottom of the page?