How to Win Friends and Influence People in the Digital Age

Peter Handal: Well in terms of the principles themselves, Rachel, they are really not different at all because they are based on human nature and that hasn't changed in 75 years or 7000 years probably, but in terms of the examples and the specifics and the media that is discussed, that's very, very different. I mean we talk in the book about Apple, we talk about Facebook, Twitter and things like that, well obviously those were totally inconceivable when Dale Carnegie was writing the original book.

Rachel Salaman: Well it is going to be interesting to hear how you transpose the original ideas on to the modern day. The book talks about soft skills versus hard skills, if you could just explain what the difference is between those two types of skills and how they relate to each other.

Peter Handal: Yes, and they do relate to each other because they are both required I think for success. The soft skills are the interpersonal relationships, the way we communicate with one another, the way we deal with other people. The hard skills are things like accounting or the Excel spreadsheet, PowerPoint, finance, how to read balance sheets and the combination of the two is really what makes a successful person.

Rachel Salaman: So this new book is about how to win friends and influence people in the digital age, just broadly speaking, starting with the broader ideas, what do you lose when you communicate digitally versus face to face?

Peter Handal: You lose the expressions, the body language, the real tone of voice in the digital world, it misses the connection with the person. How many times have we misunderstood an email? I know I have, an email that I've gotten from someone that just comes across as really sharp and angry when in fact they were really just joking or being sarcastic.

Rachel Salaman: So in a way it is a completely new way of approaching communication isn't it?

Peter Handal: Absolutely and you don't really have the same ability to react as you do in a face to face environment.

Rachel Salaman: The first chapter in the book is called Bury Your Boomerangs, why boomerangs?

Peter Handal: Dale Carnegie wrote that life is a boomerang and that what you give you get back, and that's true from a good and a bad point of view, if you make some critical comments they often come back to you, and they come back to bite you in the end, and the emphasis is really in Dale Carnegie's book on the positive which is that if you go out of your way to try to connect with other people, that will come back to you and reward you by helping you make friends and influence people, and so that's the concept of the whole book.

Rachel Salaman: And the book talks a lot about the importance of affirmation. Could you explain the difference between affirmation and flattery because they seem quite closely related?

Peter Handal: They are but the implication in the word flattery is that it's not sincere, that it's shallow and therefore actually somewhat disrespectful. Adelaide Stevenson, who back in the last century was running for President in the United States said "flattery is okay if you don't inhale," but the point was that it was not actually sincere, whereas affirmation is sincere and I think one of the things that have been a very important part of the Dale Carnegie body of thought is to be sincere, because people can always smell a phony, they really know that and so flattery really doesn't work.

Rachel Salaman: You're right that that idea about the importance of sincerity comes over very strongly, both in the original and in this new book, but what happens when you don't actually genuinely feel what you should be feeling, whatever that is, whether it's interest in the person sitting next to you at a networking event or something like that?

Peter Handal: To be honest Rachel you won't be successful because people sense that sort of thing, the key to the Dale Carnegie approach towards other people is to be sincere and if you're not, people sense that. Multi-tasking is a good example, if you're talking to someone on the phone or by Skype or something and they're multi-tasking, they will very often sound like they're interested but they won't really be interested and you can sense that, and that turns people off.

Rachel Salaman: In the book we also learn about the importance of connecting with people's core desires and this is a somewhat related idea. I suppose the question is how can you know what someone's core desire is?

Peter Handal: I think it's partly a matter of experience, I think it's partly a matter of intuition frankly, I think some people are better at that sort of thing than others, but there are parts of it that can be taught. For example to be a good listener is one of the Dale Carnegie principles, he put it that way, listen longer is the way the new book refers to it, but listening to customers, listening to the world outside of where you are is something that really helps you understand better what people are thinking and what they want. We also believe in asking questions of people, and so when doing research, ask them things like what was the high point in their life and what does that tell you about yourself, and then by having those kinds of conversations you begin to pull out the core desires that people have. And then another Dale Carnegie principle is just think in terms of the other person's interests, that's a very important aspect of learning what somebody's core desires are, because you're putting yourself in their place and then, well if I were that person what would I be interested in.

Rachel Salaman: Obviously those things are all really relevant still today, but it's hard to do some of those things over online communication, for example, listening longer, something that you just mentioned. How can you do that if you're only communicating with someone online?

Peter Handal: Yes, the listen longer part, it's very often a matter of reading things very carefully and not just giving it a five second glance, and it is a way of helping you understand what somebody is really saying, especially if you know the person, and using Facebook, for example, as a way of understanding the person you're talking to, what are they interested in, what age are they, you can find out all sorts of things about them this way and that helps you listen better, listen longer, listen more effectively. And so I think the internet actually can help in these kinds of things if it's used properly, but it takes time and it's not a matter of just communicating in the LOL, OMG, that kind of thing, it takes a certain discipline to do that sort of thing.

Rachel Salaman: And focus I should think as well.

Peter Handal: Yes focus, that's a better word.

Rachel Salaman: You mentioned in the book that a warm genuine smile is still crucial in winning friends, just as it was back in 1936, how can you smile in digital communications, apart from using an emoticon?

Peter Handal: It involves time as well and focus and discipline, just putting in LOL, for example, isn't a way of just smiling, but simple things like when you look at Facebook, it's surprising to me how many photos that you see with people who aren't smiling, so that's a pretty basic part of communicating with people, I mean they see what you look like and having a smile on your face is certainly a beginning to do that. And it's also how you write, I'm guilty of this as well, I do things really as quickly as I possibly can, I actually type faster than I can talk I think, and so I end up sometimes being somewhat abrupt. So, for example, instead if I were writing an email to myself, I might use my initials PH, well that's probably not the best, the friendliest way to smile or communicate a smile, it might be more hi Peter, so it takes a little bit longer but that communicates a smile. And also your choice of words, there is a tone of voice in the way you write, I think selecting the right words does that.

Rachel Salaman: So would you recommend people perhaps double check, when they've finished an email and they're ready to send it, just to read it over and make sure that smiling impression is there?

Peter Handal: Yes absolutely, I've gotten into the habit of doing that and it does take longer because I often find, gee why did I put that word in, I should have changed that and then I go back and I change it, so that's not a function of typing fast, that's a function of just as I type fast, I just put what's on my mind and then I end up going back and making the adjustments to reflect the tone of voice that I want to have.

Rachel Salaman: You mentioned some of the digital tools that people use these days, Facebook, Twitter and so forth, and there's all these new words out there, fans, friends, followers. When it comes to influencing people in the digital age, what's the difference between all of those things?

Peter Handal: It used to be that a friend was the really close relationship, somebody you really care about, and that would have been the hierarchy of the friend, the fan and follower, that probably would have been the highest. I think now a friend is simply, thanks to Facebook, somebody that you've accepted their friend request, and not necessarily a really close relationship. A fan is somebody that really likes you, likes the brand, likes the person, but not necessarily really interested in day to day concerns or updates on the status of things. A follower though, I think of the three is really the highest level now, if you look at all the followers that Steve Jobs had, those were people that were really interested in Steve Jobs and they were people that were really faithful to what he stood for. So I'm not denigrating friend, it's not a minor word, but it's not the same as it used to be. I'll give you one example, I was in Beijing last month and I visited Baidu which is one of our customers, they're the Chinese version of Google, it's a very impressive company, they're growing like crazy, but when I got my visitor's badge, at every other place in the world that I've been, the badge would say visitor or guest or something like that, but at Baidu in Beijing the badge said friend. So that's an indication of the use of the word friend these days.

Rachel Salaman: So you're optimistic then that these words aren't overused, that they are still some kind of sign of influence, or at least potential influence?

Peter Handal: Yes, but they mean different things than they used to.

Rachel Salaman: One of the messages in the book is to always leave others a little better, what exactly do you mean by that?

Peter Handal: Another way of putting it is to treat people with respect, and the goal is to make a lasting impression on people, and that's what the book talks about and it's also a matter of treating people as you would want them to treat you, because people will notice that, people will like you, you'll have more influence with them and it's a way to be connected to the people I think in a much more effective way. One way we do it, for example, is give what we call honest and sincere recognition. At Dale Carnegie we spend a tremendous amount of time giving recognition to people that are doing something, whether they're a very good trainer in the classroom or whether they're a very good salesman or anything of that sort, and by doing that I think we leave them a little bit better because they feel a pride in what they do, they're not just another number, they're not just another trainer in the classroom, they're somebody that we've treated with respect and given them recognition. And it's got to be genuine, it can't be phony as we were talking earlier, but that is a very effective way to win friends and influence people.

Rachel Salaman: It's interesting that you should use an example from inside your organization, so presumably the others in that tip, always leave others a little better, can be your staff, it can be clients, it can be someone you randomly meet, it's everyone?

Peter Handal: Absolutely right, one of the things we take great pride in is leaving our clients better, in the sense that we believe that the training that we do really has a positive impact on them and increases the return on investment or whatever the specific measure is that they're looking at, so we leave them better. And we also, I was talking about this on my visit to Tokyo, because I was there last month as well, and the concern in Tokyo, obviously because of the earthquake and the tsunami and the whole Fukushima thing, we did a lot of things there to leave the community better, to leave the people in Japan better and it wasn't just business, we had free stress and worry workshops because the stress that the Japanese people went through was just absolutely unbelievable to see. We didn't make money out of it, we didn't charge anything, it was something that we just did because we wanted to leave the people that we know there in a better way than they were before, it was just reaching out to them.

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Rachel Salaman: Another of the memorable lessons from Dale Carnegie's original book is to avoid arguments, but what happens when it's actually important to disagree with the person you're talking to? Do you think that it's acceptable to do that as long as you do that very politely?

Peter Handal: Rachel you're actually touching on what is the single most misunderstood principle that Dale Carnegie taught because you're absolutely right, it's not only acceptable to disagree with someone, it's important to disagree. The question is not so much whether or not you disagree, it's how you do it and we believe that you should disagree agreeably and use cushions and never say you're wrong, and not be harsh and direct about it, there are indirect ways of having a disagreement with someone that is not in your face, you don't want to slap them in the face and say you're stupid because that's not productive, and that just incites the other person, it makes it worse and that's not how to win friends and influence people. Whereas if you can state your views in a softer way, still stating them because disagreement is very important, one thing I dislike more than anything else is somebody who tells me what I want to hear as opposed to what they think, it's a question just of how they should say it. So I think that's the stress on this particular point, that's what it should be, it certainly is acceptable, it's important to disagree.

Rachel Salaman: Another message in the book is to admit faults quickly, so how quick is quick, and why is it important?

Peter Handal: It's important because first of all the alternative of not admitting the fault doesn't really work because people know the faults, they know the mistakes, they know the errors. It's important to do it quickly because that disarms people and it helps solve whatever the problem is, and this is the case where the internet really is a good asset in dealing with other people because it's a great way to apologize for something, you can just post it on your Facebook and everybody sees it right away and it's immediate. By doing it sooner rather than later is more effective because by delaying an apology or by delaying or admitting a fault or an error, it causes more conversation, more talk about it. Just look at one of the examples in the book Tiger Woods, if he had admitted what he did at the very beginning, there wouldn't have been quite as much gossip and it might very well have been a little bit better, it still would have been awful I suspect, but it would have been a little bit better than what it was by dragging it out; the media, at least in the United States, were very focused on that and it just blew it out of all proportion.

Rachel Salaman: One chapter in the book is called Access Affinity, that's a little bit of a difficult concept to understand, could you explain that idea?

Peter Handal: The affinity obviously refers to things that people have in common, and it's a way to build rapport, I happen to like opera and so I belong to a group of other people that like opera and we have something in common, so we have a real rapport with each other. Human relations are always better when they begin from a place of affinity, of something in common, and this is another example where something like Facebook can be used very effectively because you can see what other people like, what their interests are and then you can include that in conversations with them. So you develop a rapport and a relationship with them by accessing affinity. They quote in the book John Maxwell and he talks about all things being equal, people do business with people they like. And then he also added, even if things aren't equal, they still do business with people they like. But the fact is, that is just human nature and so if you have something in common with other people, something that would be this affinity approach, then you can build a rapport much more effectively.

Rachel Salaman: So another way of saying access affinity would be find common ground, something like that?

Peter Handal: That probably would have been a lot clearer actually, now that you say that Rachel.

Rachel Salaman: Another tip is to surrender the credit, so to give other people for credit for something, but doesn't that go against one of the key Dale Carnegie rules that we've already talked about, to always be sincere, because giving someone else credit that you've actually earned yourself sounds a bit disingenuous?

Peter Handal: Yes, if you took it to the extreme of literally, it was Rachel's idea and you say Peter you did a great job coming up with that thought, that is insincere and really not effective, but in most organizations and in most relationships there's a team effort involved in things, and so it's not usually just one person's idea that they come up with something, and so I think it is usually very easy to find aspects of some particular solution to a problem that somebody else was involved in and you can give them recognition for doing that. So at one extreme giving somebody credit for something that they didn't have anything to do with is absolutely not effective and wouldn't work, but the other extreme is also terrible which is to take all the credit yourself. How many people do you know that anybody who has any idea in the office or the organization, it's always my idea, well that's not very effective either. So it's that middle ground giving people sincerely the credit that they deserve for the ideas they have, instead of trying to grab it all to yourself is I think the point that we're trying to make there.

Rachel Salaman: The book advocates that leaders should admit mistakes, but this can also undermine your authority can't it, so where do you draw the line?

Peter Handal: When you're wrong, you're wrong, and I think defending a mistake really undermines authority. I think if somebody literally made an error and then just keeps on defending it, I think that makes the situation far worse and how do you then get out of it at some point, it makes the exit eventually much worse. Look at the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, at the beginning if they had said this is terrible, this is awful, we are going to do everything we can to correct it and had a spokesperson that was more humble and contrite, I think it would have been a much more effective PR situation than it was. What happened was they ended up getting backed into that situation and that really did make the situation much worse.

Rachel Salaman: So you would say that leaders always admit mistakes, there would be never any circumstances when they should perhaps not admit them?

Peter Handal: I think the answer to your question would be yes, but I think there are ways of doing it. The President of the United States rarely will actually say I made a mistake, but they will admit the mistake in a softer way and it goes to the same kind of cushions and same kind of point that I was making earlier in the conversation, that the choice of words is important, you can communicate that I shouldn't have done it that way or should have said it this way, or I did make a mistake here or something, but you don't have to say I was an idiot, how could I have been so stupid, something like that really does diminish the person and the office in the case of the President. I think those kinds of things, it's a question of how you do it more than it is whether you should do it.

Rachel Salaman: A similar issue applies to the tip in the book about asking questions instead of ordering people to do things, now I can see the point of that but if you're constantly asking your team's opinions of what you should be doing, doesn't that risk making you look like a weak leader?

Peter Handal: It could, if it's a situation where the leader just asks a lot of questions and then says at the end, gee I don't know what to do, then that is a weak leader, it doesn't just make somebody look like a weak leader, it is a weak leader, but if it's a part of a process to be a good listener, to understand what people are thinking, what they're saying, it is a very effective tool of management, and I think it's in part because the top down approach really doesn't work anymore, it used to I guess, but the person at the top really doesn't know everything. The old way of working was I know everything and I'm going to tell you what to do and this is how you're going to do it. Well that doesn't really engage people in their work and today it's really important to have engaged employees at organizations, you really want to have, not just their physical presence, you want to have their hearts and minds interested in what's going on, so asking questions is a way to get them involved in what is happening and then a decision has to be made and that is where the leader comes in, I think again it's more a question of how it's done.

Rachel Salaman: What is meant by the tip in the book, give others a fine reputation to live up to? It's an interesting tip, could you give an example of that?

Peter Handal: If you told a child that you're taking a test today and I know you're going to fail, you're going to do very poorly because you didn't study, then you're giving them a terrible reputation to live up to and you're then going to probably encourage them to fail because people live up to the reputation that they're given, whereas if you said to your daughter, I know you're going to do well at the test, you've really prepared for it, you're really ready for it and you're going to do a great job at it, then that gives them a reputation that they want to live up to. And I think it's the same in interpersonal relations, whether it's in the family, whether it's in business, whether it's in politics or government, I think that if you give people a reputation that they want to live up, that makes them want to succeed even more and I think that's something that really is a very effective way of getting people to do things that you want them to do.

Rachel Salaman: We've touched on a few of the ideas that are revisited in this new book, in your view and in your experience, why are these age old lessons so important today?

Peter Handal: What we do at Dale Carnegie is based on human nature and human nature just hasn't changed in thousands of years, but what has changed is the way we communicate, and the only way we can really be successful is through other people, so then how do we communicate with other people, and the methods have changed in the way we communicate and I think it's really very important to be able to use these soft skills, as we were talking at the beginning, it makes them more important in the digital age because the way we communicate today is louder, it's more abrupt, it has a larger audience and so that exaggerates the communications and the interpersonal relations for good or for bad. For bad, if we make a mistake and we come across as hostile and disliking other people and that sort of thing, it's known by everybody almost immediately and it's very hard to explain away, whereas if we take the time to communicate well and to think in terms of the other person's interests, to be a good listener, all those kinds of Dale Carnegie principles, if we take the time to do that today in the digital age, people notice it because it's so unusual, and so that makes them all the more effective.

Rachel Salaman: Peter Handal, thank you very much for joining us.

Peter Handal: Thank you Rachel, I enjoyed the conversation very much.

Rachel Salaman: The name of the updated version of Dale Carnegie's classic is "How to Win Friends and Influence People in the Digital Age," and there's more information at www.dalecarnegie.com and if you're interested in hearing or reading a review of the original book, you can find that in the Book Insights section of the Mind Tools site. I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview, until then goodbye.