Positive Psychology and Leadership

Margaret Greenberg: Sure. I can't tell you how many times people, when I tell them what I do, are like, "Oh, so you just think positive thoughts, is that it?" and I'm like, "No, not exactly." It's not turning lemons into lemonade. It's not about a bunch of smiley faces and just thinking positive thoughts. What positive psychology is, it's the research, it's the study of, what we call the study of what's right.

So positive psychologists study topics such as resilience and productivity; my favorite, optimism, which is what I studied; strengths, and many other topics. But it's the research around those things. We like to think of it as a metaphor, a bridge. So imagine that you're an architect and that you design bridges. Would you study all of the bridges that have collapsed or would you study all of the bridges that have stood the test of time?

Rachel Salaman: Probably both, right?

Margaret Greenberg: Exactly, Rachel, you are spot on. But psychologists typically studied only the bridges that have collapsed. We study disease and dysfunction, and rightly so – we need to cure those things. We haven't spent so much time studying the bridges that have withstood the test of time; studying more positive topics and what makes people flourish, what makes businesses productive and positive places. We haven't done as good a job studying those kinds of things.

Rachel Salaman: So how much of a difference can positive psychology make in organizations?

Margaret Greenberg: Well, we think it can make a huge impact, a positive impact, even on the bottom line, Rachel.

One of the studies that we cite, which is actually a group of studies, in the book of more than 300,000 employees, that's 51 companies which showed that work teams who applied their top strengths every day, and strengths is just one topic in positive psychology, but work teams that applied their top strengths every day had a 44 percent higher customer loyalty and employee retention compared to those that did not. Meria is another one that we cite that those that were exposed to strengths training, they saw a 17 percent increase in sales, just by doing a simple strengths assessment and having a one-on-one discussion with their manager.

That's just around strengths. Other findings – my study that I did at the University of Pennsylvania, we found that managers who gave frequent recognition and encouragement, focusing on what was right and giving that encouragement to the employee, their teams saw over 40 percent increase in productivity.

So it matters. If, as a manager, we're taught to spot problems and to fix things, right, then that's a very valuable skill to have. We're not saying ignore problems, no, but if that's the only thing you focus on, is fixing problems or shoring up weaknesses, you're really missing out on an important part of the results equation.

Rachel Salaman: Your book, "Profit from the Positive," is really useful. It's clearly structured and full of practical advice. The first part is focused on leaders, and one of tips here is to replace "just do it" with "just plan it." Now that will start alarm bells ringing for some managers, who might think you're recommending some form of procrastination. Can you explain what you mean?

Margaret Greenberg: Of course! Let me just say this, Rachel – we all procrastinate to some extent. It's part of the human condition. But we're not suggesting procrastinating here.

We're all familiar with Nike's symbol, just do it, and we've been taught to believe that the way to greater productivity is just do it. Just get it done and get it out the door, as I like to say. But what we've found is that when we take time to just plan it, just plan our work, whether it's 15 minutes at the start of the day or 15 minutes at the end of the day, we will actually be more productive. And let me explain. With our coaching clients – I'll use that as an example – they often share with us something that they want to do. They want to revamp their website or they want to go out and get more clients or whatever it might be. And we'll start with, "Okay, where and when will you do that work? Let's plan it out a little bit." Because what the research has shown is that, if we just decide up front where and when we will do a piece a work, we are twice as likely to achieve it.

So I'm a big believer in that. In fact, when we were writing the book, I knew where and when I was going to be every week. Because I am also a mother, I'm a wife, I run a business, so I had to build in time on when I was going to write this book. And just planning it, deciding where and when, is critically important.

And creating habits. Habits we often think are bad, but they are really good. You can create some good habits. People will often complain and say, "Oh, I've got to get rid of this gut." And they have this idea of getting rid of this gut, but it just seems like such a huge undertaking. I'm going to have to go to the gym, I'm going to have to do all this work to get rid of my gut. Well, we'll say, "No, what's the smallest step you could take to create some kind of habit to help you?" And it could be as simple as, as soon as I roll out of bed in the morning, I do 10 sit ups. Where and when: right when I roll out of bed, it's the very first thing that I do, and then I'm done. That's a habit.

Rachel Salaman: Now, you mentioned resilience earlier and you have a section in the book on resilience. You say that we can change our perspective by changing our questions. So could you talk us through that process and what the benefits are?

Margaret Greenberg: I had the honor of presenting with Dr David Cooperrider, who you might know, who is the professor out at Case Western University, and he started Appreciative Inquiry. And I had the pleasure of presenting with him about six months ago in Mexico City.

He says we live in the world our questions create, and that is just so powerful. So when we think about the questions we're asking of ourselves, let's say you're a client I spoke to yesterday who is thinking about taking on a new job. And if we're asking questions like, "Gee, why won't this work? What could go wrong?", those are valuable questions you can ask. But you can also ask questions that are much more empowering, such as a future perspective. A future perspective could be something like, "What would your future self say about this, you, 20 years from now? What would she say?" Or a past perspective can be really powerful too, where we can ask, "Looking back, when have you conquered a similar situation? When have you faced something similar? And what happened?" And generally we find strength. We realize that, "Well, I have been here before. I have been on the edge of making a really big decision and what happened?"

Another of our favorites is the best friend perspective, "What would your best friend advise you to do?" Sometimes we don't have access to our best friend in the moment, but we can ask ourselves that question. What would he or she tell us to do?

Rachel Salaman: And all of these questions help widen the perspective that you have on a particular situation, which is always useful, I guess?

Margaret Greenberg: Exactly. It widens your perspective and it also empowers you. You start to feel like you are more powerful – that you can do this, rather than all the reasons why you can't.

Rachel Salaman: The section on how contagious a leader's mood can be really rings true. We all know that bad moods infect the atmosphere but, on the other hand, forced optimism can come across as, well, a little forced. So what's the best way for a manager to navigate this for the good of his or her team?

Margaret Greenberg: I agree with you, Rachel. It can come across as fake, that false optimism where you just know that person is not being authentic. They're being fake and that's not effective. That's not what we're suggesting here. But what we are suggesting: Cindy Bigalow is president of a tea company here in the U.S. and she said leaders don't have the luxury of a negative mood. And what she means by that is we have such a profound impact on people every day that do you really want people walking around on eggshells around you, because you're in a bad mood and they're not sure what's going to trigger her or him now?

So at least recognize that, yes, you can have a profound impact on people, both positive and negative. Have you ever walked into a room, you've walked into a meeting room, and you can tell without even anyone saying a word what kind of mood people are in?

Rachel Salaman: Absolutely.

Margaret Greenberg: And you can tell if people are happy or sad or miserable, and so really we just believe that, as a leader, you need to be mindful of the mood that you're in. When you walk into work, you need to be really mindful. And the same with when you walk into the house at night. If you have roommates or a family, be mindful of the mood you're in.

I'll say personally, I can remember my kids when they were in middle school. I remember coming home from work and they'd be on the couch, watching TV, and the first words out of my mouth were, "Did you get your homework done? Why are there dishes in the sink? Pick up after yourself." And they rolled their eyes at me and it occurred to me one day, "What if they are going to remember? When they're young adults or parents themselves, do I want them to remember that their mother came home from work every day and barked at them and focused in on what they weren't doing versus inquiring and getting curious about their day?"

So I think it starts with just being aware and noticing the mood that you're in. And if you're in a lousy, crappy mood, then don't surround yourself with people. Go for a walk, get out in nature, do something to shift your mood. We just can't afford to spread a negative mood because it does impact people's productivity.

Rachel Salaman: Your book explores the idea of the strengths-based leader at length. Could you just talk us through what that is?

Margaret Greenberg: Sure. You're probably familiar with the strengths assessments that people take. Seligman has one called the VIA, Values In Action; Gallup has the Strengths Finders, and there are others. Now that's only one piece of strengths. It's the one that's probably been popularized the most, but being a strengths-based leader is also about focusing in on what's right.

So the questions that you ask. Sometimes we only focus in on those negative questions rather than focusing on what's right. When something positive happens, we don't always share the success stories, we're just on to the next thing. So being a strengths-based leader is also sharing success stories.

And then we also have some research, and that was part of the research I did at the University of Pennsylvania, around focus on solutions, not faults. What we found was that managers who actually help their employees brainstorm solutions rather than placing blame or rather than getting upset, they saw a 39 percent increase in productivity. So really being a leader who is more solution-focused rather than blame-focused.

Rachel Salaman: And you discuss negativity bias in the book. How does that play into the idea of strengths-based leadership, and how can a manager mitigate the effects of negativity bias?

Margaret Greenberg: Negativity bias is one of those things that I call the human condition. Evolutionary psychologists believe that, for early humans to survive, we had to be on the lookout for danger. We had to be on the lookout for that saber-toothed tiger rather than a beautiful sunset. So we're hard-wired to look for what's wrong, so to be a strengths-based leader actually requires some discipline. It sounds easy, just spotting what's right and giving positive feedback and focusing on strengths. It sounds pretty easy but, for many people, it's quite a challenge because of this negativity bias.

So, first and foremost, it's recognizing that we all do it. Yesterday I was working with a client. I was doing his 360 feedback and one of the things that came up is that he's highly skeptical, in fact what we call a potential career derailer because he's so skeptical. And that's been valued in much of his career – he has a really smart, critical mind – but he's missing out again on an important part of that results equation if he's only skeptical, if he's not seeing what's right. So I gave him a challenge yesterday to assume positive intent. When he gets that email or gets that phone call, first and foremost don't go to the dark side, assume positive intent, and catch people doing something right at least three times a day. And he looked at me like "What?" and I'm like, "Yes, catch people doing something right." And it could be not necessarily an employee. It could be you're in grocery store and you're in line and you make a point of thanking that cashier for processing your order so quickly. It could be anywhere, but just to focus in on what's right. It requires discipline, it really does.

Rachel Salaman: To introduce a more strengths-based approach to business planning, you suggest in the book that we carry out a SOAR analysis, which is similar to the more widely known SWOT analysis that looks at strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. So could you talk us through the difference between SOAR and SWOT, please?

Margaret Greenberg: It's a tool that's actually borrowed from Appreciative Inquiry that I mentioned earlier, David Cooperrider, and it's a tool that I love to use with a leadership team because it shifts their thinking about the future.

So, in a traditional SWOT analysis, threats are typically the flipside of opportunities, and our weaknesses are often just the flipside of our strengths. So, in many cases, it can be quite redundant. So, in both models, the SOAR analysis does look at strengths and it does look at opportunities, just like a traditional SWOT analysis, but there's a little bit of a shift that occurs. We also look at aspirations – what do we aspire to be – and that's when we want people to think really big. And then the results – R stands for results – what are the results you're looking for? And those can be not just financial results, but those can be other kinds of results. It might be that your company has become so well known and so positive that you've now been invited to speak at your national conference, as an example, or that your company's name has become a household word. Whatever it might be.

It's a much more empowering discussion and it's not that weaknesses are overlooked, it's that they generally come up in the opportunities section and they're framed in a much more positive way.

And you can do this with a team of seven and I've done it with a team of 70 – an extended leadership team. And it just can be a really powerful way to do business planning. And then, once you do the SOAR analysis, you can identify several priorities and build some specific goals and next steps and a tactical plan around it. But it's a very engaging process.

Rachel Salaman: Now, the second part of your book is focused on teams and it starts with some hiring tips. And it then moves onto the thorny issue of how to engage employees. You suggest we aim to bring out the best rather than get the most, so that's quite a subtle difference. What do you mean by that?

Margaret Greenberg: Subtle yes, but a huge difference. Many of the executives that we coach will often get this question, "Margaret, Senia, how can we get the most out of our people?" They want to improve productivity, they want to improve results, they want to grow. That is all valuable, but they want to get the most out of people, and we suggest that they ask themselves a slightly different question because getting the most out of people sounds like they're a dishrag and you're just trying to squeeze every last ounce of energy out of them. Get the most, so they go home and they're spent.

That's not what we're saying. We suggest that they ask the question, "How can you bring out the best in people, so that they want to perform at their very best and they want to contribute?" And so that's where we get at strengths, aligning the work to people's strengths and giving them an opportunity to do what they do best every day so that they can get into a state of flow.

But it is a nuance, but it's an important nuance. How can we bring out the best in people? Strengths is one, recognition is certainly another.

Rachel Salaman: Now, you mentioned flow there and it comes up in your book. Flow is when you're so immersed in your work that you lose track of time. Could you talk a bit more about that, and how a manager can help team members get into flow more often?

Margaret Greenberg: Senia and I had the pleasure of studying under Mihaly Csíkszentmihályi who actually coined this term "flow," like when we're so immersed in our work we lose track of time. Think of it as skills on one axis and challenge on the other. And, when we're in a state of flow, it's not that things are easy, no. There is just the right amount of challenge given our skills. It's stretching us just enough. Because when the challenge is low and our skill level is high, what happens, Rachel?

Rachel Salaman: Then we get bored.

Margaret Greenberg: Plain old boredom, right. So, as a manager, we want to get people into that flow channel that's just the right amount of challenge for people's skill.

And so we actually use this model. We'll sketch it out with clients and we ask them to do the same with their employees to say, "Okay, where are you on this flow chart? Where are you? You seem like you've kind of lost your mojo lately. You don't seem quite as jazzed up lately. Where are you on this?" And many times it's because they're bored. They haven't been challenged. There haven't been any new assignments or new work. And then, at other times, it could be a case of people where the challenge is too great for them and they actually need more training in order to perform and get into that state of flow.

So flow is just a simple but powerful model that managers can use to have a conversation with their employees.

Rachel Salaman: What are your thoughts on recognition and reward as ways to engage people?

Margaret Greenberg: Well, now you've hit a real sweet spot of mine! We just don't do enough of it. And this was part of the research study that I did at the University of Pennsylvania, where we found that managers who did give frequent recognition and encouragement, they did see a 42 percent increase in productivity. So we say, "Why are people so stingy with it? Why don't they do it?", and we hear excuses like, "Well, this is their job. This is what we pay them to do," or, "I don't need recognition to do my job, so why should I have to give it to them?" But it's like, "Why be stingy on the one thing that people want most?"

Now I will say there's a caveat. It has to be genuine. It can't just be, "Oh, Rachel, great job," and just go around slapping people on the back saying, "Great job! Great job!" You really have to be sincere and you have to be specific. What specifically did they do so that they know that it's not a hollow form of recognition, that you do know what it took for them to achieve those great results.

One of the guys that we interviewed for "Profit from the Positive," he was the co-founder of a company here in the States called EverFi. He had a term that we just loved called "praise to the back." We often say we stab people in the back when we're being nasty, but he coined a term called "praise to the back," meaning you can praise people directly, of course, and that's important, but we can also praise people to the back, meaning when they're not around and you happen to be meeting with someone else and you recognize this other person when they're not in the room. That will get back to them just like a negative thing gets back to people. So praise to the back can be just as powerful as praising someone face-to-face.

Rachel Salaman: So, in your experience, does there ever come a time when people start to expect recognition and praise to the extent that it actually ceases not to mean very much?

Margaret Greenberg: I'm not sure we have too much danger of that. I'm thinking that most people don't believe they get enough recognition. Kouzes and Posner in their research, I don't recall the exact stats right now, but there is very little chance that people are going to suffer from not getting enough recognition. But I will go back to the notion of being sincere. And if people just start to expect it and you start just going around giving high fives – good job, good job – that's going to be meaningless and that could actually have a negative effect.

Rachel Salaman: So how can positive psychology help improve performance reviews?

Margaret Greenberg: Performance reviews are quite broken, here in the U.S. and in other places as well. I think one of the most important things we can do is obsess over strengths in a performance review. But don't ignore weaknesses, don't ignore where people can develop. But I also think we miss out on focusing on what people are doing right, and development can actually be doing more of what they're doing right.

So that's one thing we can do. And the other is what we call Preview, Don't Review performance, meaning, rather than focusing strictly on the results from last year, getting an employee to imagine that it's six months from now or a year from now and you had a wildly successful year. What would you have accomplished? And so it gets them to articulate what it would look like, what the future looks like. And so that's another tool in our book.

And then, lastly, turn the performance review into a conversation rather than this big heavy review that we go in. It's like it has that feeling of going into the principal's office as a kid, like let's just turn it into a conversation. And more and more companies are going for more frequent discussions – monthly discussions with your manager rather than a once- or twice-a-year review process.

Rachel Salaman: You also offer some great tips on running effective meetings. Can you share some of those?

Margaret Greenberg: Sure. Actually, one is something called the Peak End Rule, that we remember the peak of our experiences and we also remember the ending. And so, when you're having a meeting, what often happens is people are running off to the next meeting and there is no closure. You don't identify what are some of the next steps, what are we accountable for. So really building in time at the end of your meetings to end on a positive note to provide some recognition, to identify next steps. So applying the Peak End Rule is really important.

And probably another one, we call it "Start with the Sizzle," in that get people in the right frame of mind. If you're going to be solving problems together or strategizing, you want people to be in a positive state of mind. It's what Barbara Fredrickson, another positive psychologist, calls the Broaden and Build theory, and that people are much more open to possibilities and are better brainstormers, more in a positive mood, and so starting off your meetings with some kind of positive prompt. It could be, "What's the best thing that's happened since we met last week?" or, "Do we have anyone we'd like to recognize today?" or, "What are you most proud of?" Something personal or professional that you'd like to share. But just get people in a really good frame of mind to start off that meeting and you'll have better results later.

Rachel Salaman: I think we've got a really good idea of your book from this discussion. What's next for you and the Profit from the Positive initiative?

Margaret Greenberg: Actually, we are trying to spread our reach even further, Rachel, by training other people to teach these 31 tools that are in "Profit from the Positive." Right now, Senia and I, there's only two of us and so we kept getting asked by learning and development professionals and other coaches and consultants, "When are you going to train other people? Not just the managers you work with, but train other people to deliver these tools?" So earlier this year we started a certificate program, Profit from the Positive certificate program, so we're very excited about that.

We call them Positive Deviants. We're training other Positive Deviants to spread these 31 tools to their organizations, whether they're internal or external coaches and consultants.

Rachel Salaman: And I guess people can find out more about that at profitfromthepositive.com – is that right?

Margaret Greenberg: Exactly. profitfromthepositive.com/certificateprogram or just go to that dropdown box.

Rachel Salaman: We've covered a lot of ground in this discussion. What, for you, are the one or two key takeaways for managers who would like to use positive psychology to improve productivity and profitability?

Margaret Greenberg: Number one would be that we have an opportunity to recognize people every day if we just look for it, so don't be stingy with your positive feedback. Create a habit to give some positive feedback to at least three people every day, at work, outside of work, your partner, your spouse, your kids, employees, whoever.

That would be one, and the second would be be mindful of your mood you're in. Be really mindful and, if you're in a positive mood, well then go out and spread some cheer. And if you're in a lousy mood, then recognize that and do something to help yourself get out it. Whether that's go for a walk and talk or just to take a break or maybe get more sleep, whatever it might be for you. But really be mindful of your mood. You're impacting people every day.

Rachel Salaman: Margaret Greenberg, thanks very much for joining us today.

Margaret Greenberg: You are so welcome. It was delightful to speak with you, Rachel.

Rachel Salaman: The name of Margaret's book again is, "Profit from the Positive: Proven Leadership Strategies to Boost Productivity and Transform Your Business." You can find out more about her and her work at www.profitfromthepositive.com.

I'll be back in a few weeks with another Expert Interview. Until then, goodbye.